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Thread: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

  1. #1
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    Arrow RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    So, there are two big theories on how to approach a girl. The direct and indirect schools.

    Attractive girls get approached all the time. They assume when you approach them you’re another guy trying to take them home that night. Even if they were interested, they have natural defenses they’ve built up over the years of being constantly hit on. They typically put up their “Bitch Shield” and flat out reject your approach. Even if you ask how they’re doing and they acknowledge you, their shield is still up and a major hurdle to overcome.

    Here’s how I like to break the theory down.

    When you approach a girl at a bar, the first question that comes in to their heads is “Why is this guy talking to me?”

    Indirect game uses opinions and situational openers to try to answer this question , generally by suggesting you need an opinion on something. This prevents a girl from putting up her bitch and labeling you like every other guy who comes up to hit on her. This approach typically makes it much easier to get in to a conversation, but requires some work transitioning later and portraying your interest.

    Direct game answers the question as – I’m talking to you because I’m a man and you’re attractive. Direct game requires that the value you walk in with is higher than any perceived value she has. (See my thread on frame control here - http://www.puaforums.com/game/17574-...e-control.html )Strong frame control becomes critical in direct game, if you second guess your own value you supplicate to the target and are perceived with low value, someone she’s not interested in. If you maintain the frame and your own value in the set, you can get results much quicker than with indirect game.

    Indirect Opening

    An example of a standard indirect opener I created, I call it the makeup opener:
    “Hey” (pause and let them turn) “my friends and I were having a debate about something and we need a quick opinion, Is it ok for a guy to wear makeup?”

    The advantage of this, girls all have opinions on makeup and cultural norms, etc. For me since I knew a few wings who would wear eyeshadow, I can give a lot of opinions back. The intent is just to start a conversation, eventually transition out of it.

    Note – Don’t ask permission, don’t say “can I get your opinion?” Just assume you will. And don’t apologize for interrupting them.

    Other opinion openers –
    “Where do you keep your maple syrup, in the fridge or in the cupboard?”
    “Hey my friend’s girlfriend just moved in and they’re looking at getting a dog together, but it sounds like a big commitment and I’m not sure what to tell them”
    “Do you floss before or after you brush?”

    These are just examples, and the only one I can take credit for is the makeup opener.

    What’s important here is your delivery. As you approach you want to walk up at an angle to the set. Generally you want your body pointed away as though you could walk away at any time. You can turn your head and shoulders partway toward them, without fully engaging in the set. If your body is in the middle of the set it can create the impression that you are intruding on their conversation.

    You generally wait to reposition your body after you reach the “hook point” of a conversation, where they have accepted talking to you and are interested in continuing to talk to you. This can be seen when they ask follow up questions or show any other interest in continuing the conversation and your presence is no longer intrusive but welcomed.

    A few other things to avoid, don’t peck back and forth, your body language should remain confident and alpha. Speak up and lean back somewhat so they are leaning in to you, not them.

    Again, don’t ask them if its ok to talk to them and don’t apologize. “Sorry but can I ask you a question?” Is a horrible way to introduce this. You’re acknowledging that you’re bothering them right off the bat and come in very beta. Avoid at all costs.

    If you’re standing and your set is seated, you generally want to sit down once you’ve reached the hook point. Classic Mystery Method tells you to run a “FTC” at this point – false time constraint
    EX: As you pull up the chair “OK I can only stay a second then I have to get back to my friends, but…” There are also many other things that come out of indirect game, IODs, disqualifiers, etc (In truth I sit with them without FTC, but it has to be seemless). These are just the basics, I recommend reading the Mystery Method for more information on indirect game if you like, or referring to my book list for additional reading suggestions. http://www.puaforums.com/recommended...-list-you.html

    I do have threads on disqualifiers and qualifiers, which are useful in both types of game, you can read here if you’re interested:
    http://www.puaforums.com/how-pick-up...ier-guide.html
    http://www.puaforums.com/how-pick-up...html#post61758

    With indirect game you want to avoid showing too much interest in your target until she has shown you some interest back. I talk about this on my qualifier post, but in general you don’t want to show interest in a girl until she has done something to earn it. Once she’s jumped through a hoop or done something to try to prove herself to you, then you can show your interest, give her IOIs. This is more important in indirect game, although the principles apply in all schools.

    Direct Opening

    Direct opening directly shows interest as you walk in. It is a higher risk, higher reward method than indirect opening.

    Some examples

    “Hi I saw you girls sitting over here and you have such an amazing energy about you, I had to come introduce myself. I’m Red Baron…” (Extend your hand to shake hands and get their names)

    “Hi, you might be the most gorgeous girl I’ve all day, I had to come say hi or I’d be kicking myself later”
    “Hi, you are way too pretty to be sitting alone, I’m Red Baron”

    Note again that direct openers require a fundamentally strong frame. They are difficult to pull of at night in bars because attractive girls get approached with similar stuff frequently. If your perceived value is not strong enough you will usually get blown off quickly. In addition you get the common defenses like “I have a boyfriend”.

    Direct game advocates typically say its better to know these things (if she has a boyfriend) up front so you don’t waste your time. Indirect game advocates say that she may not actually have a boyfriend but that you simply didn’t show any value yet, she doesn’t know you from any other creep at the bar so she’s just rejecting the conversation.

    The key to direct game is incredibly strong frame control and self confidence (aka inner game). When you come in hitting on a girl you risk handing her control of the frame, you need to avoid the sense of - she’s attractive and you’d be lucky to have her. This can be done but you have to know your own value. In direct game its key to remember - you’re the buyer, not the seller. You need to know what you bring to the table, and regardless of acknowledging your interest, the sale is not complete, you still qualify a girl see qualification post above) and see if she is worthy of your time.

    The next issue you have is transitioning this to a fun playful conversation. Juggler has a great frame on direct game, and says its more important where you lead the conversation after you’ve opened than it is what you’ve opened with. If you tell a girl she’s hot, she says thank you, Juggler would suggest saying something like “Oh that wasn’t a compliment, I’m actually sorry for you, people make all these assumptions about attractive girls, etc etc etc, but you’re probably not really like that at all, are you?” I will touch a little more about conversational dynamics below, but for those of you interested in this approach, Juggler’s e-book “How to Meet and Connect with Women” is phenomenal.

    It is generally more recommended to use direct openers during day game, where people are not expecting to be approached and you can often catch them off guard. Day game refers to any non-bar scene, like the grocery store or a coffee shop. Honestly, I do not have a lot of experience with day game, so I’m referring to what I’ve learned from a multitude of texts and examples on this.

    How I blend these

    I learned most of my game by focusing on body language, frame control, and kino. I also learned and played with teasing girls, staying playful, disqualifying, and qualifying them.

    As far as game in practice, I use a mix of both schools. I far prefer night game. If I can find something else to talk about I will (situational openers), if not I typically go in with my indirect makeup opener, and transition it into a normal conversation from there. But unlike indirect game do not hide my interest in my target, and my opening body position is usually pointed toward the middle of the set. During my discussion I use a lot of hand movements and kino, the use of hand movements commands attention and control over the group and the discussion, and kino portrays strong alpha qualities (reference http://www.puaforums.com/how-flirt/1...ge-basics.html http://www.puaforums.com/how-pick-up...html#post63332) . This requires a strong, friendly, social frame. . In my frame I pull this approach off because I’m a confident alpha male who’s out to be Mr. Social If your frame is not strong enough, study and follow indirect game until it is.

    A note: Girls are generally not sure if I’m hitting on them or not. I frequently get girls hitting on me that assume I’m gay – trust me this always works in your favor, they see a green light to be friendly to you and are pleasantly surprised when you prove to them you’re not because by that time your value is well established, never get defensive if you’re called gay. Don’t answer the question directly, instead ask her why, tease her about it, etc. It’s actually a compliment on how you dress and your frame control.

    I didn’t really touch on it specifically, but in your interaction you need to be a fun confident guy. Teasing a girl is fantastic, any chance you can tease her about something (note: teasing is supposed to be nice and funny) then you show you’re not afraid to call her out on funny little things. It’s confident, alpha, and raises your value.

    Again I learned my game by understanding body language, both to understand my own and theirs. Mastering IOIs and how to read them, knowing how and when to disqualify a girl and how to qualify a girl, and most importantly, using this to master frame control. Regardless of which game type or mix you use, these concepts are crucial to both.

    It’s also very important in both schools to watch for signs that a girl is trying to open you, or that a girl wants you to open them. Read the body language post for more on this, but if a girl maintains eye contact past 3 seconds, she wants you to open her. Girls also use proximity, if you notice girls lingering around within 3-5 feet of you, unless there’s another reasonable explanation for why she’s that close – then she wants you to open her.

    The 3 second eye contact becomes a warm opener, this is not really from one school or the other, its just another way to open I’ll address here (Copied from my warm opening thread)

    The warm approach

    If you’re out there being social, somewhat peacocked, girls are going to notice you. The only key is that when you see a girl looking at you, you MUST acknowledge her. This can be a wink, a wave, stick out your tongue, whatever, just smile and give some additional acknowledgement. I think La Ruina said he does some type of finger point. The important part is that you give SOME formal acknowledgement. She will give something back. I like to cheers a girl in the air if I have a drink, or give a small little wave with my hand simply halfway up. Trust me that’s the hard part, and it’s not that hard, not nearly as hard as a Cold Approach. The girl should respond with the same type of signal, occasionally something else. If she just turns away then it’s still a cold approach. The vast majority of them with acknowledge you.

    After that point you go approach (quickly, don’t think about it just go). It’s no longer a cold approach, she’s not going to blow you off. You’ve basically said Hi already, now go say something. If you got no idea what to say, fine introduce yourself (not always the best bet but if you’re lost, something’s always better than nothing). I prefer to just go ask how they’re doing, or what they’re out celebrating (Hey girls what are we out celebrating tonight?).

    The point is, girls already see you, but so many guys miss tons of opportunities because they don’t know what to do. These are the easiest ones. La Ruina says up to 90% of his approaches are warm approaches. For someone who doesn’t like to use a lot of canned material, I love these. It’s not always about having the right lines to get a girl, it’s about knowing what to do with the girls in front of you.

    Transitioning Basics

    There are a few basic ways to transition that I use, I’m going to focus on transitioning from an indirect opener. The direct opener is easier since you don’t have to move passed some canned opener, you just go directly in to what’s going on.

    The first classic way to transition involves looking for hooks to expand the conversation upon to other topics.

    Example – I opened a set with the makeup opener, was discussing mascara, and asked if they had some on so we could try it out (joking). The girls said that wasn’t something they kept in their purse.
    RB – “Oh, wait, so what exactly do you girls keep in your purse, I’m a guy and this is a huge mystery, it isn’t exactly something they teach you, you know?”
    The conversation continued to reading cosmo for more information on girls, what exactly is in the purse and why, teasing, stuff we learn growing up, etc.

    Other hooks can be something else they’ve talked about, a recent trip they mentioned, work, something about a school project, etc.

    Another girl had mentioned she was a makeup artist, “Oh that must be fascinating I bet you meet all sorts of cool people, what are some of the funniest things you’ve encountered?”

    Transition option 2 – Blatent way to move on to normal conversation - “So what are we celebrating tonight anyway?” This is simple, easy, and it’s shows positive energy. Just make sure you’re prepared to answer yourself.

    Transition option 3 – Stack another opinion opener. “Oh by the way my friend, etc etc etc.” This is a good backup transition if you’re running out of things to talk about.

    Transition option 4 – throw away your opener. This is something I’ve been doing a lot of recently, but again it requires a very strong frame.

    “Ok, so I really just wanted to come say hi, how are we doing tonight?”

    This generally changes to a more direct frame, but keeps most of the benefits of an indirect opener. You’ve come in as a social person and avoided their immediate bitch shields, and continue the conversation in to other events of the evening. This is not recommended for people newer to game.

    I’ve used this many times to transition successfully to general topics, and even get girls opinions on how a man is supposed to approach if he sees someone he wants to talk to. This requires a very strong frame however so you don’t come across as directly hitting on them, you must have the perception that you are out to be a social person. This is best when they have seen you open other sets and you have other friends and wings around so you’ve developed strong social proof.

    Option 5 is not really a transition – maybe you’ve reached the hook point but you’ve run out of things to talk about, and you’re not feeling strong enough to Number Close. Tell them - “Hey I gotta get back to my friends for a bit but I’ll come talk to you again later” That last bit is incredibly important. Tell them you’ll find them again later. Then, go talk to your friends and go open more people. This is important that you continue socializing (See http://www.puaforums.com/how-pick-up...html#post73300) because everyone in the bar is your friend. Then later, could be 20 minutes later, could be 2 hours later, you go talk to them again. The beauty of this is, when you go talk to them again you’re no longer strangers. You don’t need to opinion open, you can just walk back up with “hey ladies”. You already know each other, you’ve leapfrogged your rapport forward a long ways. I’ve pulled this off several times with great success and had girls re-open me later on in the evening at different venues because we’d already talked and everything was super friendly.


    Conversational basics

    I’m only going to touch briefly on a few keys to the conversation after opening and transitioning.

    Once you’re in and you’ve transitioned past the opener, have a conversation. But avoid the interview questions. “So what do you do, where are you from, any siblings?”

    These are horrible. Horrible for first meetings, horrible for dates, horrible all around. They don’t show any interest in the person as an individual or get them to talk about their true nature, only facts.

    In general, you want to focus on emotions, feelings, and experiences
    For example – when a girl tells you what she does, think of what type of a person would do that? What does that tell you about her?

    HB: “I like kayaking!”
    AFC might say: “Oh that’s really cool me too!” Then the conversation dies, next interview question?
    VS:
    PUA: “Really? That’s awesome, you must have a deep connection with nature, I love the feeling of sitting out there exploring new passages and seeing all sorts of exotic birds, I bet you are a really intuitive person”… (Extrapolate on how that makes you understand her better)

    Saturday I isolated my target and was talking one on one at the bar. Conversation was actually kinda waning, so I had to lead it back to more interesting things, I brought out a qualifier.
    RB: “So I like someone with a sense of adventure, personally I’m in to all sorts of different experiences…” (This was a qualifier because it tells her my values and gives her a chance to say she meets them)
    HB: (I was prepared to continue with adventurous things I do, but she was so excited to interject) “Oh me too! I just went skydiving a few months ago over the great barrier reef. Well.. kinda, we didn’t land there, blab la bla”

    See? More interesting conversation than, who are you? What do you do? Etc.

    Feelings, emotions, experiences.

    Here’s a good thread for more general conversational topics

    http://www.puaforums.com/how-pick-up...html#post54114


    Number Closing

    Honestly, if you’ve gotten this far, the girl is going to give you her number. Refer back to my post on body language and kino for looking for IOIs. But by now, you should have a pretty good idea if she is in to you or not. If you’ve led a good conversation and she’s complied, you have enough to move on.

    Number closing is not complicated.

    I’ve told people again and again, if you have nothing else, throw it out there, “Here, I wanna call you sometime”

    When you do this, take out your phone, open up the keypad, and hand it to her with your keypad pulled up (hand it to her as you’re talking)

    That’s the basic number close. Honestly I’ve seen so many people lose opportunities because they simply didn’t ask

    Like I said, getting the number is not hard. Getting a follow up sometimes is. You have to be prepared for 75% of the girls to flake out. Either they don’t respond at all, or they will respond but will flake before you get to a date.

    You get a better chance at follow up if you’ve spent more time with her (over 20 or 30 minutes) and developed a better rapport. Beyond that, there are 2 strong guidelines to increase the chance that she’ll follow up:

    1: Give her a nickname of some sort in the first interaction, something that’s cute but teases her about something is good (unique is best, I called a girl tator tot because we ended up talking about hot dishes, but something like princess or little girl work fine too if you can’t come up with something).

    2: Seed a date. This means out some idea, have a plan. For example when we are talking about what we like, qualities, etc, I may mention this really cool comedy place in the area. Assuming she’s interested, use that for your number close – here let me get you’re number and I’ll take you sometime. (Again, AS you say this, have your keypad pulled out and hand it to her. Your phone should be in her hand before you finish your last sentence.)

    Once you get the number stick around for a little bit. I like to get it mid way through the set and keep talking. If you leave immediately, it can be awkward. But if it’s the end of the night or your groups are splitting then by all means go for it. Worst she can say is no, which she rarely will.

    So, here you’ve got the number. Phone game is outside the scope of this post, so I’ll refer you to T-Mal’s guide here http://www.puaforums.com/how-text-gi...al-bible.html#

    Good luck everyone.
    Never need praise, sympathy, or approval



  2. #2
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    Another spectacular post my friend!

    Although, I will admit I made myself laugh when I read one part, because I thought, "Hmmmm how interesting would it be to combine these 3 opinion examples, into ONE opener?"

    “Hey, quick question for ya. Where do you keep your maple syrup?.... in the fridge or in the cupboard?
    Because, my friend’s girlfriend just moved in, and they’re looking at getting a dog together. But, that sounds like a big commitment and I’m not sure what to tell them.
    So, I'm thinking about asking them whether they floss before or after they brush? What do Y'all think?”




    Hahaha!

    That's just how my crazy mind works sometimes!! (And I LOVE it!!)


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    Mad props of you pull that off lol.

    Just last night one popped in my head I'm gonna make.. "hey did you see that homeless guy down the street with a spare change sign?" "yea, I had some loose change so I figured, what the heck, I walked up to him and he hands ME a nickle and says "have a nice day!"" "I was so confused, bla bla bla"
    Lol, gotta be energetic and expand on this but I wanna play with it, talk about what he looked like, etc
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    THAT would be a great one!!

    It's the whole "Twist ending" effect...
    You think you know what's gonna happen next, and then you get thrown a curve ball!!

    Nice!!


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    Oh snap I'm gonna use that homeless guy one on this one girl I rapport'd with about downtown!

    Great post RB! I'm gonna have to finish reading it throughout the day
    DTF HB's omw 2 LTR

  6. #6
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    rapport'd...

    LOL!!! I love it!! (Especially after the group post about spelling!!)


    WIN!!


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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    i like this post, but their is one thing i would like to add. the problem with opinion openers is often how they are worded. if you make up an excuse like "my friend and i were debating this and....." wouldn't it seem to her that you are a little bit insecure about your opinion? or with the dog one "i don't know what to tell them" has the word insecurity written all over it this is why when i go indirect i go with situational openers like "hey take a look over there, i think that couple needs to get a room..." this shows absolutely zero insecurity, and then you can go strait into asking her opinion about couples making out in public and then i would use that to stack into some positive/negative sex talk (a form of NLP). not to say that opinion openers can't start a convo, but i would make a statement to open and then transition into asking her opinion about that statement. i'm going to have to post a thread of my own about this methodology sometime soon.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    Actually I like your way too, that's good clarification

    I usually come up "hey I need a girls opinion on something, my friend and I.. Bla bla"

    Not having a set answer is not necessarily insecure or indecisive, it can be alpha to admit that you are not the authority on a topic and can seek assistance

    I've used my makeup one maybe 40 times and never had an issue. Like, I have thoughts but am gathering opinions. In the makeup case it makes sense since I need to know how it looks to a girl
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    i guess i just prefer situational openers when i work Indirect Game, and i am currently working on writing a thread about statement-opinion openers (you can expect to see it by tomaro) i like the opinion opener methodology, but i have adapted it to better suit me thanks again for yet another great thread

  10. #10
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    Default Re: RB - Approaching, Transitioning, and Closing

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mal View Post
    rapport'd...

    LOL!!! I love it!! (Especially after the group post about spelling!!)


    WIN!!
    Intentional


    30303030303030303030 30303033
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