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Thread: Artist and his Muse

  1. #1
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    Cool Artist and his Muse

    So as you might be able to guess from the above, I'm an artist. Recently ran into this chick, obviously my type but never let on that i was interested. We first met in the lift--got her number and invite via phone so that was way before I got an actual conversation with her at the party and even hung out with her friends. Said my good byes a few hours later.

    Didn't hit her up till a week later in regards to maybe some business between friends. I got there early, she was late and felt rushed but also got mixed up on the location as there are 3 businesses with the same name in this city. My fault for the bad info, so I rewarded her determination and good faith by buying her drinks and snacks for her kid. Meeting was fine, lots of generalizations summed up about both of our lives. I knew I wanted to see more of her outside of business so I worked my way towards asking her to model for me in conversation. I pointed out that she surrounds herself with artists type of people, but has never been apart of it--and I was down to help expose that to her. She was flattered--excited about it.

    Yesterday, I hit her up to get her opinion about something artistically, I tried to phrase my negg as playful--it worked and got an emotional response but my follow up probably didn't do so well. Here's how it went...

    Me: Man. These flowers are crazy. Thanks for the homework--could have picked a simple flower you know

    Her: Lol! I'm glad they're fitting

    Me: Now I'm just trying to figure out how I'd fit a garden into a sculpture hah. Sounds absurd. Hope sunday isn't going to be a curve ball lol. I'll make this work.

    Since then I've let some space grow apart. through out all of these interactions I haven't really negged her besides maybe this artistic challenge. I started reading up on the PUA Forums and finding what videos I can about all of this method of attracting women. One thing I know I missed out on is really reaffirming Push and Pull, negging and Kino. I'm in an odd situation in regards to maybe working with her on a business level but it's ok, I'll live. I know that I'm dancing a fine line. I guess a few important things to note is that she is a single mother, under the age of 25 and I'm not sure as much as it doesn't matter that she's single, 25 and with a kid. I want to make her feel attracted to me.

    Any input would be beneficial--I'll be meeting with her in a few days in my Art Studio. I guess another thing is--she'll be my model, but I'd much rather have her be my muse.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    As an artist (hyper-realist/sketch), I will chime in and help another artist out (although I am not as hardcore as you). It's funny because I just finished doing a portrait of my muse for her BDay.

    Regarding negs...

    1. I would only use negs if the girl has a Bitch Shield because she is some HB9+ and knows it. If a girl is already interested in you, there is no reason to use negs. There are so many more effective things you can do to her to make her attracted to you.

    2. If negging is not congruent to you as a person, don't go out of your way to use it. The really good venusian artists/seducers and those who rely on natural game don't even use negs. It is really for the newb PUA and so many do it wrong and come of as insulting when the whole objective is to create good emotions in a girl. You should see the numerous posts that come up.

    3. There is a big difference between a neg and a disqualifier. A neg is not self-amusing, a disqualifier is. I tend to use disqualifiers more as part of my teasing arsenal.

    One of the big rules of speaking the language of emotion is whenever possible, you want everything you say to amuse you as much or more than her.

    Kino, space and body language is another art in itself, but an important aspect of the game.

    Push/Pull is a such generalized term these days that it is almost as if it is the root language of seduction. Different PUA coaches and their system has their own way of accomplishing the same effect of creating sexual tension.

    I oftentimes find that creating art or writing and being a social man conflicts. They are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Creating art requires solitude because you are focused and trapped in your world and in the moment. And solitude breeds introvertism. I could be couped up for a week drawing or writing and when I step out into the real world, I am not the same. I cannot connect with people the same way. My eye contact is weakened. My wit is not as sharp. My confidence feels empty. I feel uncomfortable in the presence of a sudden influx of human presence. It is a huge challenge bouncing between the two worlds. In the end, as part of my self-improvement and transformation, art lost and was practically sacrificed in the process of being the social person I am today.

    I will add that it is possible to seduce a girl that start from a business/professional arrangement but it is tougher. The girl that I am dating started as my salsa teacher and has high status in the dance community. I started from a position of very little value in an inferior position as her a student. She also had a bf for 2 years. Despite these obstacles, I was able to get as far as I did because I was able to run a strong game with the skill sets I learned being involved in the seduction community for a while and also assortment theory played in my favor because we have so much in common.

    The best advice I can give you to start on solid grounds is start flirting with her and let your intentions be known from the very beginning. Don't hesitate in creating a strong momentum like a jet stream. Two things will happen: She will either like you enough that she will go along OR she will not be interested enough and you will lose the professional arrangement due to her flakes. If the latter is the case, then you just saved a lot of time. The last thing you want to do is set up in her mind the expectation that you two have a professional relationship and that is the reason why you want to see her. It doesn't work that way.

    One of the very first messages I sent her was close to Halloween '13 and was from an inside joke.

    ME: "Hey [X], speaking of “holy water” and “prayers"...I got a great idea! For Halloween, I’m gunna go dress up as a devil. As in the handsome kind. Wanna be my fallen angel? ^_^
    HER: "Haha alright smooth operator..." :P

    One of the very first in person flirts I did on her was when she showed me a promotional flyer for her class. It was just a real life silhouette of a guy and a girl in a dancing pose so I didn't know who it was.

    ME: Wait. Let me see that again...
    *Studies it intently*
    ME: Well, based on my professional assessment as an artist...this is definitely missing something.
    HER: What?
    ME: Me and You.
    She laughs.
    HER: Well it IS me.
    ME: Really?! Wow.
    HER: Yep. So it's just missing you.

    (Responsive ioi!)

    So dooo eet!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    Great notes. She's definitely an HB10. Thanks.

    In regards to art--I'd agree with you on 90% of it. I know that in my experience art can be created collaboratively as well. My relationship I've stated clearly with her is that--in regards to what that means has yet to be defined. I'm not going to have her do anything she doesn't want to do. I'm really curious how to make it seem like it was her suggestion to do more risky art if you know what I mean.

    Tomorrow I'll be meeting her in my studio. I'm not sure how I'll handle any of this, other than I'll be honest and I'll be forward mid way through the session. My fear is that she'll be feeling twice as vulnerable as my model and for me to break it to her will quickly turn things. I'm not afraid of losing the potential business relationship--I'm afraid of not being able to read signs properly and keep things rolling smoothly regardless of the ioi or IODs. I know that factually the only time I was harsh was in the text--but even then it wasn't all that bad. Just a poor mistake. I knew that though.

    Although I'll probably not get any tips in time to help me I'm curious how to shift things to a more playful manner while she's exposed as my model / muse. Do I create a scenario where I can't stop admiring her and keep her guessing by stopping and almost touch or almost go in for a kiss and then stop? Right now this is the only thing I can come up with to say something without saying something forcing her to question me. I know I'll be able to read signs if she's not liking my responses--I know not to push more than I have IF I've made her uncomfortable.

    Looking back at the time I've spent with her--I'd assume that she and I have literally known each other for less than 10 hours and more than 5 hours for sure. By Mystery's 7 hour rule, there is potential for an F-close but it's not my goal. My goal is to make her my muse and continue to be so.

    Thanks again!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    That is true on the collaboration, especially when you are working with a model.

    I don't know if this will get to you in time, but here goes.

    Regarding your question about handling the session...That is a delicate situation because she will feel vulnerable. The standard PUA formula is to keep a balance between comfort and attraction. But not every single interaction has to adhere to that. There are days when I am sick or very tired, my social energy is low, and I don't want to have to think hard. What do I do? I stick to establishing comfort and deep rapport with the girl.

    A lot of guys worry about attraction momentum that they make the mistake of running it into the ground. They end up looking like a player/try-to-hard/not real. This "Short game" is great for same night lays and will appeal to a certain type of girl, but since that is not your goal, don't worry.

    This is something you might want to consider. Rather than getting right into it, I would invite her in, have her sit down over a drink and have a chat and start asking her questions and get to know her as a person. You want to establish trust and a connection.

    Examples of questions to establish deep rapport. Ask more questions based off of those questions.

    - What is the most beautiful vision you see for yourself in the future?

    - If you could suddenly possess and extraordinary talent in one of the arts, which one would it be? Why?

    - If you could be sculpted, painted or be drawn by any artist in history, who would you choose? Why?

    - If you could live in any time period in history, what would it be? Why?

    - If you could be invisible for one hour, where would you go and what would you do? Why?

    - What is the most dangerous thing you ever done?

    You should always segway into these questions smoothly and that will take some conversation skills and tact or else it will come off as an interview. If she is really interested in you, she would throw the question back at you. A good ioi! So it is good you have an answer yourself. But start off with a cool exciting dhv story about you as an artist that will cause her to open up for those questions.

    I advise that you DON'T keep admiring her. If you put her on a pedestal and treat her like a goddess/muse, a woman will hate that. It is not attractive because you just given away your value and power. We always value what we have to work hard for. When a guy is all over an HB, gives her all his attention or appears validated, it tells her that this is a guy who is not use to being with a girl of my level. What has she done to really earn his attention/interest that quickly? If he is really a high valued individual who values himself that highly, why is he giving it up so easily to a girl? You could give her genuine compliments. Something I told my girl is "I really like the shape of your head. I know it sounds silly, but it makes you look good in any hairstyle."

    This is really not the right environment to k-close a girl. There is a short-game term called "high risk high reward." But they don't teach you that it needs to be a calculated risk. The stakes are if you fail, you could lose her trust in you, you could come off as that creepy artist taking advantage, unprofessional, etc. You only take this kind of risk if you read her IOIs right. Reading a girl accurately takes skill, empathy and constant exposure to women. Empathy was something I was naturally good at, but a lot of guys aren't at reading women. So if you are not sure how to read her, I would highly advise against this course of action. All the odds are against you in a short-game.

    WHAT YOU SHOULD DO...is create good/positive emotions in her during the session. If you can make her laugh. Laughter will help diffuse any discomfort. Insert some flirting here and there. John Sinn has a nice 4 step escalation ladder on how to flirt and turn sexual without the girl knowing using the principle of "consistency." Don't overthink this.

    Don't worry about Mystery's 7 hour rule. First of all, sex shouldn't be your priority. When that becomes a priority, it changes your innergame. Don't push for sex, push for sexuality so the girl will desire sex. When you are "the best of yourself" sex will come.

    Secondly, Mystery Method is not the bible of PUA. It works well for him because of who he is, but the strength of your game may lie elsewhere. If you want this girl as a muse, then take all the time you want to play it, enjoy the process, and during that time start getting into self-improvement. You should never feel like you are under a time constraint. Once you feel you are under a time constraint, you will undermine yourself. Already you are anxious and overthinking.

    Lasty, I want to add that there is no such thing as a seduction method that will work on all women. Some girls you will be able to sleep with easy, some girls it will be harder. It depends on many factors such as her level of attraction, their values, the type of girl she is. You can run the best game ever, but if you are not her type, thus she is not attracted to you, sex is not going to happen.
    In fact, statistically, all PUA skill sets do is it increases your odds giving you that slight edge in a numbers game like sales. Don't be deceived by many PUA coaches marketing on youtube showing them with success pulling women with their in-field videos. They don't show you their failures, which is usually more than their success.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    Thanks again.

    I really like those deep rapport questions. Good chance I'll try to use them today. Going to do some last minute study on ioi and IODs.

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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    Update...

    Some where I failed today. I must have missed some signs some where. To sum it in short I saw many IOIs and IODs. I got lost in the fray and got told I was a good friend at the end of our session.

    To break it down in events and signals she showed up late. I didn't neg her for it. Couldn't think of something so I just defaulted not even mentioning it. The conversations went good in my opinion, I used the cube to help get a deeper rapport as well as using some of the advice on this thread to bring me more IOIs. I got great responses from these techniques. Lots of body signals with positive responses. Here's the kicker, she kept feeling uncomfortable about her body like she was revealing too much. I stumbled over this time and time again because it kept happening over and over again. Its obvious she wasn't fully confident about her body or exposing it to me. I did the worse thing I knew which was just trying to positive reinforce her hiding. I dont know how to break that mold. I even debated about escalating but her grabbing the pillows to cover herself was an obvious sign to me that she was trying to hide herself from me.

    I should mention she was having a great time during all of this. She was smiling, playing with her hair, putting her finger in her mouth, and many other IOIs... There was no hint of me falling for her although I did give her one too many compliments. How do I improve here? We've yet to schedule our next meet. It'll probably be next weekend.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    Why don’t you look at what you accomplished? You created positive feelings in her by showing her a good time.

    As for her feeling uncomfortable exposed, well that is on her as a first time model. Every woman is different based on their confidence level and self-esteem and their dedication as a model. She took the first step in trying something different, it doesn’t mean it was going to be easy for her. This is not an IOD btw. If you are thrown in an environment that is outside your element, you are not going to feel comfortable either.

    Okay that whole thing with you positively reinforcing her hiding is you losing your frame and going AFC. That is just a reflection of the true colors of your inner game. You can neg her all you want but that is just performance, not true confidence. It is not congruent to your inner game. A girl can just Sh1t test you and you will break. So what happened here? When she expressed discomfort, you got nervous because you “projected” your insecurities and you saw it in her thinking it is an IOD. Your innergame inform behaviors and behaviors inform actions - the action being automatically trying to appease the person and unable to be a challenge to her.

    You were right not to escalate because that was the WRONG moment.

    I told you before that this is the wrong place to make your moves. Even though it is possible, you are setting yourself up for a challenge that is way beyond your skill level.

    Many AFC’s make this mistake. I was one of ‘em. They do favors for the girl or they use business/profession of some sort to isolate the girl and get the girl to spend time with them because they are afraid that if they ask the girl out on a real date, they’ll get rejected. It is already the wrong basis. You needed her so much you were afraid of losing her. So the girl comes out for the wrong reasons expecting it to be professional when the guy has ulterior motives. It doesn’t work. That is when things can get awkward.

    THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULDV’E DONE (I didn’t get a chance to get into this stuff because I was rushed trying to get some stuff out to you in time so you can use).

    1. Get her out on a real date outside of your profession on neutral ground. This was suppose to be done the moment you got her number. You don’t just invite her to be your model. You gave her too much value. What did she do to deserve this? The less distracting the environment, the more she can focus on you. If you have to rely on your environment as a crutch, then that is weak game.

    Look at some of the great fashion photographers. Models want to pose for them. They have such passive value and an abundant mentality they don’t need to go looking for girls or pull a girl off the street. When you just suddenly invite a girl out to be your model and validating her, you are subcommunicating to her that this is a guy who doesn’t have value. If he truly had value, then why is he giving it up so easily?

    Looking back at your old post, your initial impression started when you met her in the lift. Seduction starts at “hello” and I am not talking about just making small talk. MeHow has a great guide on how to create a powerful serendipity attraction upon first meet by flirting with her with the language of emotion. It’s called 3 second attraction.

    2. After you gone out on a date and her investment in you moves up the ladder, THEN you invite the girl to model (giving her some value back).

    How do you improve?

    90% of the guys who come on the forums for advice have weak inner game and they want “quick fixes” using external game to patch things up. I would start working from there. There’s some great books out there. I recommend Mark Manson’s “True Confidence.” Do your diligence and start investing in yourself. I can tell you all the external game pointers but it’s pointless. These are just temporary patchwork. It’s like trying to create good sculpture from bad clay. The illusion will only last for so long. That is the biggest problem with Mystery Method. You are just putting on a performance, and after a while, you stop being genuine, it causes you to overthink, people will start seeing you are not real and all your stuff is an act.

    Bouncing back and forth from an isolated world that creates introverts to a real life social world will be one of the hardest challenge you will ever face. It will take immense willpower switching back and forth. Your progress will not be the same.

    What you should do with this girl?

    Don’t invite her back to model. If you want to see her, ask her out for coffee. Be honest in your intentions without giving up your power “Hey I really like you. You’re cool. I want to get to know you. Let’s hangout.”

    Two things are going to happen:

    1. She accepts – If she does that means she is attracted to you and you got anxious and over-thought for nothing. That is your ioi, plain and simple.

    2. She is iffy/not interested – Then that is the sum of your IODs. She wasn’t attracted enough from the get go and now you know she only sees you as friend material. You can move on with a lesson learned rather than getting hung up on a girl that was already lost before it began. Your response is simple “It’s okay. It was nice meeting you.”

    It’s either a “fvck yes” or “no.”

    Mystery teaches this whole thing about showing “disinterest” which has been taken out of context so many times by newbies. The art of true confidence is being honest with your intentions and showing vulnerability.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    I can't agree with you more. I'm aware that my reaction and post was heat of the moment in looking at my failures and some acknowledgement to the game's effectiveness. My goal was never to F-close. I wanted to create an intimate situation and fill her with positive emotions while maintaining a strong level of trust. When I look at my failures it has everything to do with making her feel uncomfortable about her body and how I could take advantage of the situation. As much as I wanted to kiss her and touch her like any other lover I knew better. I have much room for improvement in the inner game as much as the game itself. Thanks for reminding me. I'm extremely happy with the what I was able to do. I can't thank the PUAs before me enough.

    In regards to my inner game--I spend a lot of time doing that by myself. I'll also reveal some strong points about myself now, I've been single just about every waking moment of my life. Been out on only a few dates in my life but it's never gone any further. I'm 28. I've slept with women before. I judge harshly on myself more than others--but I also give myself room to grow and try to learn from every interaction. Most of this thread about my goals is really about myself in hopes to improve myself with others who are doing the same or already have achieved a strong level of efficiency in their inner game.

    To address where I am in my head space is that I'm aware it was her first time modeling. I tried to make that I was not trying to take advantage of her and tried to keep her comfortable, interested, and excited every step of the way while she was vulnerable. The points of my criticism in regards to my game was that I wanted things to be smoother. I wanted to keep her emotionally high to not think about modeling and exert nothing but her personality. I'd say that I was able to maintain about 75% of that. It's mostly my fault on all this, I know I should have led things more to make it easy for her but even after a compliance test I wasn't sure how to build more trust there. I'm sure that none of this is easy and won't be achievable over night and I'm ok with that. I'm just looking for the best advice to help mold my intentions and actions without any noticeable tricks or real mindgames. I'm not looking for a quick fix. Hopefully this makes sense. I sound pretty defensive right now but I'm hoping it helps to get more specific advice and maybe more people will be contributing as well to help me out. Thanks in advance.

    In the end I know that overall it was a great experience for the both of us. I'm always fighting my personal emotions when I'm interacting with someone who demonstrates strong value to me that keeps me there. Honestly, I could have convinced her to stay longer. I could have kissed her. I could have really let myself go or dropped the bomb--but I really wanted to make her inspired to my level in being there.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    The points of my criticism in regards to my game was that I wanted things to be smoother. I wanted to keep her emotionally high to not think about modeling and exert nothing but her personality.
    And I'll say again, this isn't the right place to run game. There's conflicting thoughts. Do you want to be professional and bring out the best in her as a model or do you want to make her desire you? The difference is one is about her the other is about you. You brought someone you are interested in and mixed it with your work right off the bat. You can't be objective and think with a sense of clarity if you are clouded with emotions of attraction.

    From a PUA standpoint, you gotta drop this whole muse thing. Why? 1) It mindfvcks your innergame because it causes you to put a girl on a pedestal as a source of inspiration and it goes against the mantra of "treat a beautiful woman no different than you would anyone else" 2) Because she hasn't done anything to deserve to be your muse yet. You don't even know her that well. What if down the line, you find out all these red flags that turn you off about her. You still want her as your muse? As an artist, I didn't even do my girl's portrait until 7 months after we met and that's seeing her an average of 3-4 times a week.

    I'd say that I was able to maintain about 75% of that. It's mostly my fault on all this, I know I should have led things more to make it easy for her but even after a compliance test I wasn't sure how to build more trust there. I'm sure that none of this is easy and won't be achievable over night and I'm ok with that. I'm just looking for the best advice to help mold my intentions and actions without any noticeable tricks or real mindgames.
    75% on a first time model is damn good. Even if you run a solid "game" it probably would've only gone up by another 5%. Don't put it all on yourself. You are dealing with a girl that is 1) not a professional and dedicated model and 2) you practically know nothing about her past. What if she was teased about her body when she was young? You are an artist not a shrink.

    One of the best ways to facilitate building trust is to show vulnerability by being the first to drop your guards and reveal something really deep about yourself. It could be something embarrassing, something painful. But ultimately what you learned out of it.

    So if I ask a girl "What is the most embarrassing moment in your life?" Before she can answer "I will say, you know what? This could be pretty deep. I'll go first."

    Then you escalate to asking more deeper questions.

    "What is the one experience that you wish you can go back in time and change?" Go first and by the next question as a compliance test, see if she wants to go first.

    This is similar to a methodology that many animal trainers do. They Disarm themselves first using certain body language.

    But in your case, the question should be geared more towards what they are insecure about so you both can relate to each other.

    From a professional standpoint, talk to someone like a established photographer who works with many models and find out what they do. I know one of the things they do is play music and it helps a lot. Then again, most models are so comfortable with themselves it makes it easy.

  10. #10
    artandale's Avatar
    artandale is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Artist and his Muse

    I see your points. I agree with them.

    I'm blurring the lines. I have no problem living between both worlds. I've thought about dropping either the business relationship or the muse relationship--which is more important and I believe they're equal. What I'm doing is probably breaking most of the rules of in business and even the PUA world. I see this experience aka relationship I'm developing with her as a painting of my inner game. It's my story behind the art. It's definitely inappropriate, conflicting and some would even say a career breaker (at heart, I'm a rule breaker)--I love Art just as much as I love women. I take risks in my world when it comes to art. I also understand that nothing is new, everything is just a remix of old art with a different perspective.

    As for looking to talk to photographers who deal with models--I have several friends who have been dating their muses. I've tried talking to them in length but what ultimately ends up happening is that there are 2 types of photographers. The sleazy photographers and the strictly ethics photographer. If I wanted to do business ethnically--I wouldn't be an artist. I dont want to be any of the above. My goal is to get my muse to help inspire my work--I'm not defining what the relationship is yet. Too soon to tell in my opinion.

    I've learned a lot from these threads as well as whatever else I can grab. I've also learned a lot about her and even more about myself. As muddy as things might be or will be it's the first time I've been truly excited to make art. Truthfully I don't plan to give or show it to anyone until I'm ready. And it wont be for a while, when it goes up--I'm not sure how the PUA community feels about it but I believe PUA was heavily involved in the process of making my current series of works.

    I could play it safe, but that'd be boring. BUT I can't be exciting forever so I'm sure I'll be calling it quits while I'm ahead come these next few weeks.


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