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Thread: Bartender help!

  1. #11
    Element is offline Aspiring PUA
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    Well...I think dhv-ing is such a huge..uhh spectrum. You could demonstrate value by flashing a wallet full of hundreds....but that would get you slapped. But more on that later...If you're ever read The Ultimate Guide to Text and Phone Game this may be classified as a long fuse, which means low compliance, but this is sort of jumping to conclusions. If a girl doesn't reply from a text message a typical guy may go through the following thought process "OMG she never texted back..she must not like me, I'm not good looking, she's talking to another guy, I'll never see her again"...she could've been using the bathroom. Some people judge things WAYYY too fast, and blow small problems WAYYY out of proportion. I guess you could try to text her again, but one more time...MAX, some people see it as needy. Texting again might even be a problem, so instead send out a mass text, so it doesn't seem needy....but I haven't personally tried this method out before, so you might want to use some discretion. I would just go for an in-person interaction from here on out. It's hard to ignore someone if they're right in front of you (though I have done it before). Now for DHV-ing..I believe that all value is perceived, and is part of a..Mindset. If you think you're the sh1t, you are the sh1t. Hell, your DHV can be confidence if you want it to be (trust me I know...high school is a major competition, and all the competition tries to use DHV'ing with cool tricks, and shiny jewelry..I go for the more...subtle type of DHV..confidence. Though I have not worked out this to the point where it could "invade" other "cliques"..sorry a little off topic there). Anyways 3 weeks seems like a good freezeout, and the next time you see her, you'll get a semi-fresh slate. Your value I believe is entirely in her mind. If you have already come to terms with her about the whole tip thing, then don't draw anymore attention to it. Stop the bleeding, then let the wound heal...don't pick at the scab (gross). The more attention you draw to it, the bigger the problem becomes. So to sum it all up, don't fret out over an email, keep your DHV-ing to your mindset, let confidence and maybe even Kino be your DHV (60 years challenge), and if you've apologized, and all's said and done, then don't draw any more attention to the little tip thing. Hope it helps!

    [ADMIN: The return key is your friend. Please break up with wall of text if you want people to read/respond.]

  2. #12
    Magnum is offline PUA in Training
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    I think Element offers a very good overview. (Although I kinda respectfully disagree about the flashing the wallet around-- seems kinda like a dlv, like it's needy to have to flash cash around to get attention. Idk, it's probably all in HOW you do it.)

    I'm no guru or expert on dhv, but im guessing what studmuffin52 is looking for is some more concrete examples, so here goes.... (if this goes well maybe it's time *i* write a pua book LOL)


    Demonstrations of Higher Value and Demonstrations of Lower Value all come down to one thing: what is "value"? Value in this context is social value, I.e. what makes you seem more like an alpha male, or what perceived qualities can be used to judge your fitness for mating? DHV is anything that may improve this perceived value. DLV is anything that diminishes or damages their perception of your value.

    It's important to note that a DH/LV may be picked up on consciously or not at all, but most often is seen, processed, and acted on by the SUBconscious mind. We've all heard the term "creepy" thrown around describing dating behavior (perhaps even been described as such ourselves on occasion :P ) But what IS creepy?? Go ahead. Ask a girl. I'll wait. I'll bet she can come up with lots of ex boyfriends and ex acquaintances who she can label as creepy, and maybe even can tell you the last thing they did before earning that label, but that isn't the only creepy thing they did, its not the whole story, and more importantly I'll bet dollars to donuts she couldn't actually DEFINE creepy. That's because "creepy" is subconscious. She doesn't know WHY she doesn't like this person. Oh, sure, she may have a reason she made up or one particular mistake she latched on to, but that's just a rationalization of the overall feeling of not liking this person.

    To tie it all together: "creepy" is a person or behavior that Demonstrates Lower Value. Creepy is stalker-ish. Creepy is clingy. We all know these things to be DLV. She doesn't what the fark DLV means, she just knows she feels "creeped out" around this person. It's her subconscious telling her "hmm this person isn't acting like an alpha male, and worse he's acting like he wants to mate with us, he may be a potential rapist, and we definitely cannot afford to be knocked up, much less by a low-ranking male, so avoid him like a plague-infested hobo, or at least use your friends to shield you from him like you would a regular hobo" or something to that effect. :P Mind you she doesn't hear all that, she just hears "creepy", which you may have noticed has about the same effect.

    Point is, that's what happens with a DLV. We want the opposite reaction-- intense natural attraction --which requires DHV.

    Some of the classic PUA works give a few examples. However, knowing what we know about females primitive brain attraction switches, and what we know about the successful mate metaswitches that society puts on top of them, we can deduce many more examples. See if you can find some patterns:


    DHV: calling once, when its convenient for you
    DLV: calling and txting this girl over and over

    DHV: not always getting back to the girl right away (you're a busy, popular guy after all)
    DLV: always responding to her txt and phone calls immediately

    DHV: ending the conversation on your own terms (again, you're a busy important guy who can't talk on the phone FOREVER, even though you may currently be enjoying it)
    DLV: always relying on, waiting for, or letting her decide when to end the conversation (like you have nothing better to do but talk to her ALL DAY, even if she's busy or bored you just can't live without her voice, or don't have the balls to tell her you gotta go)

    DHV: enjoying her company, but prepared to leave if that changes (take-it-or-leave-it attitude, a.k.a. Walking power)
    DLV: hanging on her every word, letting her walk all over you just to spend time with her, throwing a fit or begging her to stay a little longer when she has to leave

    DHV: withdrawing attention when she's being bitchy, bratty, or otherwise crossing a boundary you've set as intolerable behavior
    DLV: letting her treat you like sh1t, or continue on with a bratty or bitchy attitude, or even encouraging or playing into the drama

    DLV: asking for her number, or giving yours (without reciprocation), especially if she says no
    DHV: inspiring on leading her to give you her number or trade numbers, or asking in a way where rejection isn't possible or is a nonissue

    DLV: standing alone in the corner
    DHV: talking, being social, having one or more girls around you, even if they're just pawns you met a few minutes ago

    DLV: opening and only talking to your target in a set of two or more
    DHV: opening the rest of the set first, earning the trust of her friends before actively engaging the target

    DLV: bragging about yourself
    DHV: talking up your friends, telling everyone how awesome they are

    DLV: being self deprecating, talking bad about yourself
    DHV: being self confident, yet modest

    DLV: failing a sh1t test
    DHV: passing a sh1t test, or even turning it around on her. Also, testing her back; or even better, testing her FIRST!

    DLV: having low standards
    DHV: having high standards, expressing them when appropriate, and always holding her to them, and rewarding her when she lives up to them

    DLV: punishing her by getting angry, mopey, or abusive
    DHV: punishing her by withdrawing attention, calmly expressing disappointment and unattractiveness, or ultimately ending the relationship calmly and without reservation.

    DLV: showering her with gifts and affection, or giving her exactly what she asks for all the time
    DHV: rewarding her only when she does something you want to reinforce , and only with attention and appropriate levels of affection (i.e. Not more than she has shown you). Only giving gifts when it is something you WANT to give and that she has earned, and NEVER because you feel you "have to".

    DLV: being predictable
    DHV: keeping her on her toes

    DLV: apologizing, especially for things you didn't do wrong or even weren't involved with (e.g. I'm so sorry about your bad day, what can I do to make it up to you?)
    DHV: admitting when you're wrong, and acknowledging how you affected her feelings, and being clear that you did not intend to

    DLV: over reacting or under reacting
    DHV: being cool, calm, and in control

    DLV: yelling while upset
    DHV: speaking in a gentle yet very firm manner. You are explicit about what you want and where your boundaries are, but without flying off the handle.

    DLV: being indecisive, or letting her get frustrated into making a decision for you
    DHV: making decisions, or if you aren't prepared to make a particular decision, at least taking an action towards it (e.g. "there's a lot of great options for dinner, let's walk towards main street and see who has outdoor seating today")

    DLV: saying "yes" all the time
    DHV: saying "no", or if you cannot, at least not giving a straight "yes" (e.g. Her-"how about we sit?" you-"sure, but not here, I like the tables by the window better")

    DLV: being jealous or mopey when she tells you about her awesome day
    DHV: being in a great mood, because your days are always awesome

    DLV: letting her bad day bring you down
    DHV: being positive no matter what her mood, after all she is a guest in your reality, not the other way around.

    DLV: getting pissy because the group wants to do something expensive
    DHV: suggesting something way more fun (that just happens to be in your budget), or as a last resort having a FTC without ever mentioning money

    DLV: asking when she is free for a date
    DHV: suggesting a fun activity or something you were planning to do anyway, at a particular time, and offering to let her tag along or suggesting it might be fun if she did.

    DLV: begging her to come up to your place
    DHV: suggesting you have to get up early, but that it might be ok if she only came in for a few minutes

    DLV: pursuing her relentlessly
    DHV: letting her to chase you

    DLV: being free and available ALL THE TIME, or being busy ALL THE TIME
    DHV: you're a successful guy, so you do have responsibilities, but also free time for the good things in life, though your free time is valuable and you prefer to spend it with someone you really enjoy

    DLV: being too easy
    DHV: being a challenge to her

    DLV: sleeping with anything that moves, or letting her think that about you
    DHV: letting her know that you are "very selective" (even if you aren't) and that you're glad she is too because you don't just [sleep with / give your number to / kiss / etc ] just anyone

    DLV: you brag about yourself, and/or put your friends down, talk bad about them, etc
    DHV: your friends talk you up to your target, as your friends think you're the best thing ever, and you must be because more than one person can't be wrong

    DLV: giving in to a cock-block
    DHV: turning her friends to your side, and amoging any other alpha males

    DLV: competing for a girl's attention
    DHV: using a pawn, female friend, or other prospective HB to get your target to compete for you

    DLV: buying a girl a drink (see gifts above), or worse-- asking if you CAN buy her a drink
    NEUTRAL: buying your own drinks
    DHV: girls buying drinks for you, or at least having your target see other people buying drinks for you. If you must buy a round for someone, make sure it is someone who will reciprocate (and without being asked), such as friends, or if it is to open a set. If friends or guys buy you drinks, feel free to reciprocate. The point is to be very generous, though never to the level of being "used", and never buy a drink for a girl unless she's family or a good friend.

    DLV: buying a girl dinner
    DHV: being modern enough to split the check, or being suave enough that she offered to pay

    DLV: declining if she offers to buy you something or bring you something, acting undeserving or like she is more deserving than you
    DHV: accepting if she offers to buy you something or brings you a gift, after all you are worthy of such affection, and plus you are a wise alpha male who knows that her investing in you is part of the game (be sure to reward here with your attention, though, or she won't be as likely to do it again)

    DLV: being openly feminist OR anti-feminist
    DHV: recognizing the progress of women on civil rights, yet embracing your view as a PUA that women naturally desire an alpha male, and moreover be wise enough to know that not every woman is in-touch with that side of herself enough to talk about that

    DLV: being too agreeable OR disagreeable
    DHV: be open minded enough to be agreeable enough to establish rapport, but never compromise on your own principles. If she has a really great point and you never thought about the topic that way before, admit it and tell her you like a woman who can keep up with you in conversation; otherwise stick to your guns. She's still a guest in your reality

    DLV: arguing
    DHV: you never argue, you're above all that silly drama. If she presses, FTC. You have better things to do than get sucked in to a bunch of drama.

    DLV: interrogating her, asking her a bunch of yes/no questions
    DHV: you ask insightful, open-ended questions that get her talking about herself in a fun way. You never ask boring stuff like "what do you do for work?", or if you do you word it in an interesting way (e.g. "what is your passion?")

    DLV: answering her questions, directly or boringly
    DHV: giving creative answers (e.g. Her-"what do you do for a living?" you-"sock puppet wrangler. Couldn't you tell from all these bite marks?" or whatever, see Style). Most importantly, you tease/neg her if she asks any boring questions (such as "what do you do for a living?")

    And finally,

    DHV: tip appropriately
    DLV: fail to tip, tip too much, or leave a "joke tip" (you know who you are [hint: it's studmuffin52, sorry guy, I had to ] )


    Anyways, hope that helps. Maybe if this is good and people contribute to it we can actually sticky this thread.

  3. #13
    studmuffin52 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    wow ... I should give you a tip.. maybe a joke tip too.

    thanks for all of that, it definately helps, and it's the Mindset in the end that will set the bar when I see her this Saturday.

    I will definately keep you posted on my progress, for now, exam study then game prep!

  4. #14
    Magnum is offline PUA in Training
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    Quote Originally Posted by studmuffin52 View Post
    wow ... I should give you a tip.. maybe a joke tip too.

    thanks for all of that, it definately helps, and it's the Mindset in the end that will set the bar when I see her this Saturday.

    I will definately keep you posted on my progress, for now, exam study then game prep!

    LOL tips welcome! sh1t, even joke tips are welcome, I'm doing this for free here!

    (well Maybe not *entirely* free..., I guess I am hoping for reciprocation on my sticking points and girl troubles, which you guys have been pretty good about. Thanks!)
    Last edited by Magnum; 04-18-2011 at 10:20 PM.

  5. #15
    Element is offline Aspiring PUA
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    The flashing hundreds was kinda meant to be a joke, (a joke tip if I'm not intruding on any joke here). More concrete examples of dhv'ing can be given, of course, but I found it hard to find exact DHV's to fit my situation exactly. I then concluded that DHV's all can be reduced to a Mindset. The proper mindset to have would not be "what would I do if I was alpha", it would be "I am alpha"

    This of course would cause some head scratching to some people (due to the admin comment, now I'm learning how to break up my text a little more). What's the main purpose to DHV's? To put you above the competition in a sense, so that she knows you're a higher "caliber" than other guys. The alpha mindset sets you above most guys if you have it, as most guys are constantly worrying about how they are perceived.

    This is, of course all easy said, but adopting that mindset may be a little..hard. I would suggest like how you suggested for me to watch Van Wilder as he is a very good example of an alpha. Try to make your mindset less dependent on social interactions. An example of a dependent mindset is "oh she didn't respond very well...now I'm sad". Instead try to adopt a "so what" attitude, such as "oh she didn't respond so well..so what?"

    The "so what" mindset does not give you a free pass to be reckless though, as I am just saying to not let your mindsets be dependent on the social interaction. That is one important aspect of the alpha attitude. The Attraction Code is all about this, it's a good read. Also, I'm not saying that if you don't change your mindset immediately, then all of your chances with women will be shot to hell. Fixed and concrete DHV's I find tend to fix the "symptom" of the disease, whereas the proper "mindset" is the cure. It's okay to use fixed concrete DHV's while you're still trying to find the "cure" (on a side note, I am not implying you have a disease, in fact just the opposite, every man is born with a natural instinct to lead). Hope this helps!

  6. #16
    studmuffin52 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    UPDATE!!!

    so I went to the local bar yesterday before hitting a club last night, and there she was .. the bartender. There was another male bartender working last night and I guess I used it to my advantage too ... this is in detail of the story ...

    The male Bartender (we'll call him Charles and female one called Sarah) came to serve me first, because Sarah was busy serving someone else already, but once she saw me, her first reaction was "Hey! It's been a long while how are you?" *flashing a big smile. I respond, "great, as per usual and yourself...."

    It was moderately busy, so she came back once in a while to talk to me, or I'd ask her a quick question, and discussed summer plans, and jobs, and scheduling and stuff (mainly so I know when she'd be away and when she'd be free etc), each time, she couldn't hold her smile back and she touched her hair once in a while. When she asked me what I was doing this summer, told her my plans and when she found out I was working 2 full-time jobs, she smirked and said, "so you have no free time huh?" ... not sure if this is a good thing for her to think ....

    While she wasn't talking to me, I was talking to Charles abut the NHL playoffs, movies, Cars and made it seem I was socialable and think she noticed it too. I also saw how she interact with other guys in the bar, and she definately didn't smile as much if she even did.

    I stayed for about 45 minutes, I gave her her own space, and took it easy. When i left, I got her attention and said .. "Happy Easter" and she took a step out of her booth with a big smile and to "shake my hand", and i smiled and said, it was great seeing you again ..... I'm slowly wondering if she stepped out and see if I'd at least hug her?? fail?!

    My question now is, how am I doing on pace of the last night? Truth be told, I asked her 2 times to hang out 2 months ago, and she never got back to me on it, never a "solid no" .. when should I ask again, so it doesn't look like it's my ONLY objective?... any course of action to lead to better success?

    Any comments on the questions I posed here and feedback for the future.

  7. #17
    Element is offline Aspiring PUA
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    I've never been in a bar before, so I can't comment on your post with firsthand experience, however I can provide some type of help to the best of my ability. It seems to me, that you missed a window of opportunity, she would've stayed behind her ("booth"?) if she wanted a handshake, or waved. She showed some compliance by coming out of her..booth to say goodbye. The best way to fix this would be to always assume that she is attracted to you, so you always capitalize on windows of opportunities, and leave no open windows.

    People do tend to take this too far, and let it turn into obsession, they assume too much attraction on her part, and by some backwards rationalization, they realize she is truly special because she is so attracted to you, and they go out of their way to please her. Don't let this happen to you, always assume attraction on her part, but be careful not to obsess.

    You did very well otherwise, and the time tested saying "time heals all" has taken into effect, the freezeout worked. Next time though, I would suggest trying to, hide your answers of some sort of way. Instead of saying immediately what you are going to do for summer, you could've said, "Oh I'm going to spend some time in Narnia with Mr. Thomas". Narnia is my personal favorite answer..hider of sorts, as its funny, and many people can relate to it. Don't do this too much though, as if you do it can come across as if you have something to hide.

    It seems she is interested in you to some degree, and you have made good impressions, so that is always a good thing. If you have number closed then, perhaps maybe you should arrange something, which would help you immensely. You stated that she hasn't responded to texts 2 months ago, and wondering if you should ask again. I would say try again. Forget what happened two months ago, and how she didn't respond. Maybe she didn't respond based on her perceptions of you back then, but you have new impressions with her now, so she probably will respond, if you Number Close properly.

    To summarize, I would concentrate on building an air of mystery to your image, and start arranging meet-ups with her, if the situation permits. Start texting her again, but be sure not to over-do it. If you go to the bar again, make sure not to go everyday, as you'll become predictable. If you keep surprising her, I'm sure she'll be very receptive. Make sure to get a good impression with her, then limit the interactions. Due to this she will think that your time is valuable, and make the most of it. Be sure you have a good impression with her first though, if you disappear too soon, you will only be forgotten. Hope it helps!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    Quote Originally Posted by studmuffin52 View Post
    Is this bad for a bartender?

    so i went to a bar, and the bartender was very flirty and we had a decent talk. It was a quiet night, so she spent some time, letting me sample some foods and talked to me about life stuff (education, job, etc). As she gave me my bill, she wrote on it her name, number and e-mail. (1)

    I decided to pull a prank and I tipped her 5 dollars on a 60 bill. (2)

    I added her on facebook 2 days later and she sent me a message saying how it was weird i tipped a "potential" friend less than 10% and randoms. (2B)

    At first I thought, maybe she's a simply a golddigger, but she was so perfect at the same time and I wanted to make it up, so i went to the bar the following weekend, and started off with a note saying how it was a all a joke and added 20 bucks to her last weeks tip and ordered my usual drink (which she remembers). (3)

    I have dropped by that bar maybe once every 2-3 weeks and had light convos with her. But can't seem to get her to hang out with me off of work. (4)

    Did my joke ruin it? or is she faking being nice for better tips? or is she trying to get to know me better at the bar and see how I interact with others before agreeing to meeting? Is she playing hard to get? What are some things I could do to stand out faster?

    She always greets me with a wide smile and we had a great talk the last time, but she never texted me when I left her my number.
    First thing: A group of sentences makes up a paragraph. Paragraphs are much easier to read than the format you chose. I helped.

    1. Any bartender worth a damn will make your experience as pleasurable as possible without being unprofessional. If she gave you her name, number, and email, this is a great sign! You obviously did some things very correctly or she naturally felt a connection with you (given the info was really hers).

    2. That's not a joke. That's like your boss cutting you out of a days pay as a "joke". Don't be a cheap bastard, but don't buy her attention. I have mentioned this in many past threads; look up my previous posts.

    2B. See, you left her with a bad taste in her mouth. Of all the things to discuss during a second interaction; you don't want money to be the subject, in any way.

    3. The focus of her thoughts about you when you left, when you added her on FB, and when you showed up in person the next time was on money. You shouldn't have opened with money; do you always have to buy women's attention?

    A better approach would have been to blow off your "joke" as a ploy to spend the money on her elsewhere; you know, on a date.

    4. She opened the door for you, took a chance; you failed to meet her expectations from the time you pulled your "joke" on her. Cut her loose, if you like the bar, go back. Take a date with you. If you can make her chase you; you may have another shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by studmuffin52 View Post
    a side question, clearly, when I go into the bar, she can't give me hugs or anything .. but she gives me a hand shake when i go in and leave the bar (she doesn't do that with other people) ... does that mean anything special?
    She may still like you, or the idea of you before you screwed it up.
    I wouldn't encourage you to look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by studmuffin52 View Post
    The last time i was there was 3 weeks ago, but she was a server that night and she was busy running aorund serving, but she didn't come to talk to me or anything since was sitting at the bar. But she did yell across the room, my name and a hello.

    I haven't been back to the bar for 3 weeks now, planning on going back in 2 weeks after I'm done with work.

    Is there anything you guys can suggest to me doing next time I visit to test her interest level and/or make myself a higher value to her...
    Saying "hello" is a nice thing servers do for regular customers. I have worked at a very busy bar. When one of the servers wanted to talk to a guy, no matter how busy; she found a way (albiet, for a short amount of time, on really busy nights).


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    Seeveral months ago, I promised a thread on Hired Guns. I've been too damn busy and haven't been able to get the opening post where I want it.

    For short:

    When dealing with hired guns, there should be no focus on her work. Don't even talk about it. She's there to make money and possibly meet people/have some fun. If she gives you an opening to do something with her elsewhere, you should not be bringing up anything from the time you met her except those things about her that have nothing to do with where you met.
    I have failed more than most men have tried.

    Every woman you pass up is a woman you will never have.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    thanks for breaking it ALL down ...

    so basically you are saying it is currently a lost cause, is there ANY way to fix it in a nice manner?

    the only reason why I'm hung over this is, she's very different than ALL the women I've met in the last 3 years or more....

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    studmuffin52 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Bartender help!

    so update time,

    it's been close to a month since I've seen the bartender and when Iwalked in, the usual big smile and hello, and some conversation on her trip to Vegas, school and randoms assortments of topics.....

    Conversations goes well all the time, just can't seem to grasp her and be in MORE control, like I'm in control, but I feel I need more workin this setting....

    I'm almost positive she knows I like her and trying to act cool about everything. New problem, there's a flirty co-worker at the bar with her and he's a new guy .. he kinos with her and cracks a few jokes .... its hard to out compete this since he's behind the bar where I'm not allowed.

    I didn't bother asking her to hang out, because it didn't seem like the right time today ... any suggestions to finding out the status with that farking coworker? and how do you out-compete in these situations?


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