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Thread: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

  1. #1
    jayk238 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    I've looked at Mark Manson- who says being vulnerable asking a girl out directly- I think you're pretty lets get coffee confidently is better than doing it indirectly which wastes time.

    David D says this gives up power and you shouldn't do this because you are asking permission. What gives?

    How do you ask a girl for coffee?

    I always thought it was do you want to get coffee, or come get coffee with me (which is usually what I say)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    Nice question.

    Obviously everyone is going to have their own advice. And I'm gonna tell you that you should choose what's best for you. But that is kind of broad general advice and really doesn't point out what I feel is the most important question. Why?

    The reason is cause every PUA mentor is going to tell you what he knows works, yet they're conflicting. Why? Usually cause it's what has worked for them. But I feel that a 25 year old Brad Pitt prospect should probably not run the same game as a 45 year old balding obese man. It doesn't make much sense to me.

    For example: I think only average to unattractive men should use negs. It'll make women wonder why they have such confidence when the physical part doesn't really meet with what we know as attractive. Where if an extremely attractive guy used negs then he may just be hurting himself further making him look cocky. Which is bad. If you're not FUNNY and cocky then you're just plain cocky and nobody likes that.

    Of course there's unattractive guys doing direct game. And they're successful. However, would they be as successful as a man with equal skill but is much more attractive? What about indirect game? There's so many variables that it's really a process in finding what works for you.

    I actually tried Styles "If I weren't gay....." opener and I had pleasant responses. But not one woman jumped on me the way they did Style. Why? Maybe cause I don't pull off the gay look well. Or maybe I look great as a gay man and they really believe I couldn't convert. Who knows. But I tried it and found out it's not for me.

    Just try to keep it simple and feel free to be skeptical of anyone's advice. Even my own right now lol.
    "All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth."

  3. #3
    Blistex is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    This doesn't only depend on the guy, but the girl. For instance there is a girl at work I was texting a bit, who walked by me tonight and saw me doing some electrical work, she stuck her tongue out at me and I blew her a kiss, she said to call her. This particular girl never acted that interested, which I chose to mirror with disinterest, and of course when she said to call her I did, we have plans for this weekend.

    Girl two this week, I met her at the bar over the weekend. She constantly shoots me down in texts, and doesn't reciprocate my flirting much, but she likes it and smiles and laughs. She is more scared, so I have to constantly pull WAY back and go back to the nice guy routine after pushing it a bit to keep her interested. She says "No Sex." I tell her I wasn't talking about sex, but she initiates contact and messages me. She is my Saturday date, and she is bringing a mutual friend along, but one that won't cock block me, and I plan to game her anyway.

    Girl three, another girl I met the same night as girl two. She saw me talking to a buddy I work with, I was right by her and she slipped my smokes out of my pocket. I didn't break the conversation or eye contact with him and slid my hand up her arm to reclaim them. Then my buddy introduced us and started talking me up before backing off a bit. She told me "I bet you never talk to pretty girls." To which I replied "Well, I havn't yet tonight." And she continued to neg me, such as "Your hair is so amazing, but it is so long, I bet you are a pothead." I told her that she was being judgemental, and we laughed. I never did tell her the truth though. The bar was closing and I had another girl to go meet up with so I laughed at her, told her she was silly and walked off. I could have pursued this, but I didn't care much, though she is the most beautiful of the three, I am very busy and have no time for the level of game that would call for at the moment.

    I give these 3 examples because, underlying I use some basic techniques, such as push-pull, comfort-building and cocky-funny in a teasing manner. Each girl calls for me to be a different type of person, while maintaining my core identity. You have one unified type of game, then you have one unified type of girl you get. Direct is cool at times, but, and I can't stress this enough, if it is a girl that you will see regularly build some DEEP raport and try to emotionally connect with her (even without the attraction) the first couple times you chat so that you can learn more about what type of girl she is, then decide on a game plan. Adapt and overcome my friend.

    The one core value that I do keep between all the women I see, is that I am ambitious and I am busy, so you can take me or leave me and don't waste my fucking time, it is my most precious resource.
    KISS - Keep it Stupid Simple

  4. #4
    jayk238 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    Ok, so gamewise,

    Lets say she's an HB9 body with an HB8 face and possibly either HB9/10 attitude or its shyness (I think its shyness, others think she's stuck up). Its possible she has a bf but who cares.

    Ok, lets say I am IMO and others an HB 8.5 face but in a 5'7 frame. Career is excellent.

    Clearly I'm a ball of nerves and awkwardness inside. However, my direct approach is the most confident you will ever see. To put it in perspective, my very first appraoch after CBT was with a model taller than me. Granted she was 35, but she was so overwhelmed, she wrote her number down and gave it to me without prompting. All I did was eye her, make eye contact, hold it, and shake her hand and maintain a 30 minute boring conversation about medicine.

    So with all of that, what would you suggest I use?

  5. #5
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    Wolf24 is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    I kinda like you, you're eager to learn.

    If you read "The Game", remember how Style claimed to be so successful: He considered every technique and/or advice, experimented with them and only took the beneficial ones for himself. And created his unique recipe (so to speak) to get the girl.

    So my advice would be: consider both mindsets. Really equip them as your own. Test both of them. And use the one that suits you better.

    We can always give personal experiences and try to show you a direct way for success, but that would be sugarcoating. Our personal experiences might not always be suitable for your social environment.

    So take our word, learn from them, study if you want, but ultimately, always try to find your own way.

    PS: If you want my personal opinion, I really like Mark Manson's approach on several topics. But sometimes I feel like he's digging a bit too deep, going into too much detail which makes him lose the sight of the main topic. So I choose to follow his advice only up to a certain point.
    It's not about who I was or who I'm going to become.

    It's about who I am. Do it right here, right now.

  6. #6
    no1980greersc is offline Aspiring PUA
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    Yeah well nobody really ever knows what "indirect" game is now do they...We are talking about Mystery Method with Indirect aren't we, because even Krauser is indirect-direct....

    So knowing what we do about Mystery Method...by the time you are "asking her out" all the indirect shit is pretty much past and you are alreadying into C&F and push-pull which are all elaborate ways of going direct....

    So by the time you are "asking her out" you would have qualified her and she would have been "winning you over" with indirect....

  7. #7
    Bill Preston's Avatar
    Bill Preston is offline Owner - PUA Forum
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Blistex View Post
    She told me "I bet you never talk to pretty girls." To which I replied "Well, I havn't yet tonight."

    Brilliant response. Perfect.

    Well done.

  8. #8
    WillEdward's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    I always make statements and suggest the activity at the high point of the interaction. You shouldn't ask for permission, but find out what their schedule is like.
    Elevate Your Game | Check out my blog for lay reports, attraction and dancefloor game tips !

    willedward.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Preston View Post
    Brilliant response. Perfect.

    Well done.
    Yep. This is one of the best lines I've seen on here in a while.
    "It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Mark Manson vs David D...conflicting advice

    First of all, Mark Manson doesn't teach "game" Mark Manson teaches self-development with emphasis on developing true confidence (the basis of innergame). The whole idea is not to play the game.

    Majority of the PUA coaches out there will teach some degree of external game. It's not game without techniques.

    I equate this to martial arts. There are grappling styles such as brazilian jujitsu used in MMA that is very physical technique based. There are internal styles such as Tai Chi and Aikido that rely on internal energy known as "Chi." PUA is like grappling. A person with true confidence is someone who is a Chi master or a huge physically in shape brawler.

    Also keep in mind, a lot of Mark Manson's concept of vulnerability has been used wrong. I've seen this a lot. Here are my notes from his seminar.

    ---------
    Mistakes guys make with Vulnerability

    Don’t go overboard.
    Try to meet hers and your needs. Meeting only your needs is a formula for disaster.
    When the stars align take your shot.
    Just saying “I want to fvck you” does not represent all of your needs/desires – some people have desires for intimacy, some people have desires to feel important, some people have desires for companionship. Therefore, just by saying that, you are not completely being authentic. It also objectifies the woman you are talking to and jeopardizes the relationship, therefore it is a narcissistic behavior.
    The other problem, a common one, is something referred to “emotional vomit.” Guys take this too far and begins to spew all their emotions, their insecurities, life story, etc and freaks the girl out. Don’t direct a massive explosion of emotion at a potential girlfriend. That is not vulnerability. If it’s conditional, it’s not vulnerability. If there is something you lack in your own emotional awareness then it is not completely authentic. And what is actually required to happen sometimes, is going through a pain period to be comfortable with yourself to express it in a serious way.
    Another mistake is guys look at it as a technique. If you ever catch yourself saying “That didn’t work” you are performing. It is not a self help technique to try to improve.
    -----------

    I am a firm believer that as a venusian artist, you need to be well-rounded. Never restrict yourself to one style. It is a search.

    Addressing your question specifically...
    How do you be genuine/authentic with your attraction for a girl without giving up your power?

    The answer is it’s non-transactional. You don’t expect a gift in return. Can you pay a woman a compliment in a way that it is non-transactional? That generosity of spirit will make it come across as vulnerable and powerful.

    I would simply find a middle ground and open with:

    "I saw you from [x] and you caught my eye, I just wanted to come up and meet you."

    It's true, it conveys confidence, it's honest and it creates uncertainty and you met both of your needs. Telling her "let's get coffee" is only fulfilling your needs and is not non-transactional. It's no different than telling her "let's fvck." It's a matter of being honest with your intentions.

    One of the best honest answers was seen in Forest Gump when he met the drill sergeant for the first time and the drill sergeant was screaming at the new recruits "Why are you here!?" While most recruits were saying "To serve my country!" which is kinda bs (because who wants to die in combat?). Forest Gump simply said the most obvious answer.

    FG: "I am here for you to tell me what to do, sir!"
    Drill Sergeant: "That's the best answer I ever heard! You must be a genius!"

    It was the most simplest obvious and honest answer that met both of their needs.

    Applied to pickup, here is what it would look like from another poster [can't remember his name sorry]:

    ---------------

    ***Being honest about sexual desires***
    I may not mention to the women when I first meet her that I am interested in forming a sexual relationship with her, and that I engage in sexual relationships with other women. But, I don’t think this is dishonest. For, example you don’t tell someone your bank account details just because they ask you. You would reply to this by saying, I don’t want you to know my bank account details. If the woman actually wants to ask me any question I am happy to give her an honest answer, or at least be honest in as far as I will say “I don’t feel comfortable answering that question in detail.” If a woman asks me “do you want to have sex with me?” the answer I will often give is, “you are a beautiful woman, and I am a man, so I am biologically programmed to want to have sex with you, but that is not important to me, I just enjoy being with you” or something like this. I think this is a really honest answer. It is dishonest for an AFG to hide his sexual desires, just because he is afraid of rejection.

    ***Being honest about sexual relations with other women***
    When women ask me about if I have sexual relations with other women, I guess I just want to give them an answer that leaves them satisfied. For example, if at first I say “I don’t feel comfortable answering this question” and then they keep pestering me about it, I may say, “look, if a beautiful woman wants to sleep with me I’m not going to say no to her.” It’s honest and a DHV at the same time. In the first case showing that I’m not going to reveal myself to you just because you want me to, and in the second showing other beautiful women are attracted to me.

    ***communicating with women using honest emotions***
    I think the emotions you use when answering these kind of questions are very important. I never want to brag, I always display a feeling of discomfort when talking about these things. For, me this feeling of discomfort is genuine, because I am showing that I am afraid that this fact about me will affect my relationship with the woman that I am with. This is totally honest, because I do like the girl that I am with, and I do care about her, and our relationship and I won’t feel good if she stops liking me.

    ***Being honest about the nature of the relationship***
    Often girls will say to me that they want to become my girlfriend. I deal with this by saying that I really enjoy the feeling that I have with you, but I am not ready to commit to a relationship at this stage. Not allowing a girl to become my girlfriend has never stoped me from having sexual relations with a girl,. When I am with a girl who wants to become my girlfriend, I will tell her that we can’t have a committed relationship at this stage, but at the same time I will treat her like she is my girlfriend when I am with her, and for the woman having this feeling is worth more that actually having the title of being my girlfriend.

    I think that most of the time the girl saying she wants to be my girlfriend is just an ASD.


    ***Being Honest When dealing with last minute resistance***
    When I get a girl up to my room they might say “we wont have sex” I will answer by saying “we “wont do anything that you don’t feel comfortable doing”. This is true. Of course I want her to feel comfortable and enjoy her self, because the more she enjoys herself the better the sex will be. If she is not comfortable then she wont want to be with me again.

    Perhaps the LMR phase this is the most difficult time to be honest in a logical way, but it’s just part of getting around the ASD’s. But, the girl always knows there is a chance that sexual relations might happen, but she needs to feel comfortable and know that you respect her and she able to say no.

    Another thing to be honest about is wanting to continue a relationship with the girl. Most girls to have sex will need to feel like you are not going to abandon them. I’m always honest about wanting to continue a relationship, because I always want to continue!!!! Of course I’m not going to, if I want to have sex with a girl, I’m going to want to stay around after (and possibly have sex with her again.)

    ***Being honest about being a PUA***
    I often am even honest with women about the fact that I sarge. Although, I never use PUA terminology around women, because I think this termonlogy was created by men for men. But, if she is interested in knowing (and often they are because often I have cold approached them, and from this they are curious about why and how often I do this) I will her know that I have no problem with approaching a woman that I am attracted to, with the intension of starting a relationship with her.

    The women who I have told about this usually actually find this quite interesting, and amusing and I think they actually like me more as a result of it. (I know that might sound crazy) I have even been on dates with a girl and she was curious to see me do it to another woman walking the street. I told her that I would do it only if she held my hand while I did it. She said to me “if any woman gives you her number she is crazy”. I went and approached a HB9 while holding my girls hand, and within one min I had her number. I then called her strait away to prove to my girl that I got her number and she hadn’t given me a fake, and sure enough the girl picked up the phone and answered. The girl found it very amusing to see me do this, and I think it was a big DHV in my favor. Previously I would have thought that this kind of behaviour would not have been accepted by other girls.


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