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  1. #21
    Hands is offline PUA in Training
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    I agree with Jironasaurus, I think its a matter of balance, you don't give a crap until you're in, and depending on what you want out of said woman/situation you will can either keep the mindset or shift into something else. I'm not saying that 'don't give a crap' is bad advice, its great advice, but based on the situation, something else may be a better fit.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jironasaurus View Post
    The biggest problem with this mindset is... there will be times when women WANT you to care. They want you to show them that they are worth something to you.

    This is also the delicate place that people who learn PU find themselves in at times, because they believe that they "shouldn't give a fuck", and when the woman sees that and thinks they aren't important to the man at all, they leave.

    And you do exactly what they want, right? She wants you to care, so you care. If that works for you, great for you.

    I believe we're not talking about relationships, otherwise someone incorrectly understood the frame of the conversation.
    To me, I punish bad behavior and I reward good behavior.
    Having said that, when I'm not in a relationship, I don't give a crap wether she wants me to care or not. I care if I like her and if I think she deserves my "caring". Not when she wants it. It's my life, so I live it in my own terms. If we're just hooking up and she wants me to care about her (when I don't feel the same way), either she accepts my terms or we're over.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    So I think I see where the disconnect is, I was married before, and in that setting I did give a crap, you can't really make a marriage work without caring, how much is up for debate. But in the context of this thread, where I"m just trying to hook up with a girl "don't give a fuck' is perfect.

  4. #24
    Jironasaurus is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    Quote Originally Posted by lenric View Post
    And you do exactly what they want, right? She wants you to care, so you care. If that works for you, great for you.

    I believe we're not talking about relationships, otherwise someone incorrectly understood the frame of the conversation.
    To me, I punish bad behavior and I reward good behavior.
    Having said that, when I'm not in a relationship, I don't give a crap wether she wants me to care or not. I care if I like her and if I think she deserves my "caring". Not when she wants it. It's my life, so I live it in my own terms. If we're just hooking up and she wants me to care about her (when I don't feel the same way), either she accepts my terms or we're over.
    Funny how people swing from one extreme end to the other. It's as if there is no balance in the absolute middle.

    No, I am not talking about relationships exclusively. There will come times when people want you to care, whether you are in a relationship with them or not. It's not about punishing bad behaviour or rewarding good ones. Nor is it about misunderstanding the frame of the conversation.

    We will have, inevitably, people who will take advice like this without thinking of how to apply it in the right context. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we've all seen this happen. My purpose in adding my point of view to your advice was to give such people a wider perspective of things, and not to blindly follow what they read.

    Now, the way I see it, most people who come into this mentality got jaded of being treated like shit by women. So now they are being defiant and decide to go their own way. If a man's coming from this position, then it's not that they really don't give a fuck. It's more that they are being rebellious now. Huge difference as compared to a man who decides that he wants to live life on his own terms, because he genuinely wants to.

    How so? A man in the former category will be stubborn. He will not budge because he wants his way. A man in the latter category is open and flexible to life. He will be more open to caring because he will care at the right time.

    At the end of the day, we all want to improve with women. I never once said that mentality doesn't work. But people can get really obsessed with it, and forget to treat women as a fellow human being. A mentality like that can ruin a good outcome when not used appropriately.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jironasaurus View Post
    Funny how people swing from one extreme end to the other. It's as if there is no balance in the absolute middle.

    No, I am not talking about relationships exclusively. There will come times when people want you to care, whether you are in a relationship with them or not. It's not about punishing bad behaviour or rewarding good ones. Nor is it about misunderstanding the frame of the conversation.

    We will have, inevitably, people who will take advice like this without thinking of how to apply it in the right context. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we've all seen this happen. My purpose in adding my point of view to your advice was to give such people a wider perspective of things, and not to blindly follow what they read.

    Now, the way I see it, most people who come into this mentality got jaded of being treated like shit by women. So now they are being defiant and decide to go their own way. If a man's coming from this position, then it's not that they really don't give a fuck. It's more that they are being rebellious now. Huge difference as compared to a man who decides that he wants to live life on his own terms, because he genuinely wants to.

    How so? A man in the former category will be stubborn. He will not budge because he wants his way. A man in the latter category is open and flexible to life. He will be more open to caring because he will care at the right time.

    At the end of the day, we all want to improve with women. I never once said that mentality doesn't work. But people can get really obsessed with it, and forget to treat women as a fellow human being. A mentality like that can ruin a good outcome when not used appropriately.
    Which is, as you stated, the way you see it, not what I said.
    The purpose of the mindset I presented has a behavioral evolution behind. The purpose of the beginning of the bold sentence is anything but an evolution,

    About the rest, as I already wrote, you're taking what I said and changing its context. Or, in other words, you're not understanding what I'm saying.
    Having said that, I will explain it.

    Evidently, my purpose is pretty simple: you're not affected by the opinions of people you don't care. As in, you're non-reactive towards it, wether they are full of insults, or full of roses. That doesn't mean they will become sad. And if they do, who cares?
    Seeing that, the "don't give a fuck" mentality is to be applied to people other than friends (wether you train it with them is another story). At least, close friends.
    We were talking about dating. Mainly, unknown girls. When a guy and a girl get to the point of wanting to become a couple, they'll obviously have feelings for each other. Does that mean the mindset I proposed, which is all about being non-reactive, translates into "fuck you, I don't care about you, your opinion is irrelevant to me"?
    No. It just means that you don't care about it to the point of becoming affected if she says "you're a clown". It's called being non-reactive. They won't feel sad about it, because you're ignoring it, or because you don't care about her. You just don't care that much, which is perfectly normal, since you're not together for 2339 years.

    Evidently this is much harder to apply with the people you love, such as gfs, best friends, parents, whatever. Because you care about their opinion. Which is perfectly healthy.
    Imo, it's just not healthy to care about someone else's opinion (barring the group of people I stated) to the point of becoming affected by it.

  6. #26
    Jironasaurus is offline PUA Forums Respected Contributor
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    Quote Originally Posted by lenric View Post
    Which is, as you stated, the way you see it, not what I said.
    The purpose of the mindset I presented has a behavioral evolution behind. The purpose of the beginning of the bold sentence is anything but an evolution,

    About the rest, as I already wrote, you're taking what I said and changing its context. Or, in other words, you're not understanding what I'm saying.
    It's more of what you didn't say. I didn't change your context, I was adding on to it.

    I also did say, and I quote myself - "My purpose in adding my point of view to your advice was to give such people a wider perspective of things, and not to blindly follow what they read."

    To quote you as well - "Try practicing it, not only with unknown people, but also with your friends, and remember something related to this mindset: it's only when you don't care about losing something that you get yourself in the best position of getting it. Because you're not overly emotional about it."

    These are evidently people that others will care about. As I said before, the context can be misread here, so I added my opinion, so anyone who wishes to adopt the mentality of "not giving a fuck" considers when is the right time to give a fuck, and when not to. People can practise it all they want, just understand that if anyone's "practising it with friends", they will want to be aware of whether it's a justified approach in completely dynamic situations.

  7. #27
    Hands is offline PUA in Training
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    Default Re: Business, and pleasure

    I've been pretty busy these last few weeks with self improvement activities, but I wanted to follow up on this situation. She and I finally had our first date last night, and it was a kiss close. I think it could have been more, but logistics got in the way. Thank you J, and Lenric, so many changes have been started in my life because of the conversations had here.

    We had dinner, split the bill, then we went some where to hang out. Kino was great, but she was trying to friendzone me pretty hard, because she didn't want to choose between me and the other guy we work with, who is now my friend. I told her I'm not trying to make her choose and the time she isn't spending with me is none of my business, and that took care of any more resistance.

    No fucks were given, yet all was gained.


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