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  1. #1
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    Question When to fight and when to next?

    Hey all,

    So, I'm having trouble sorting this thing out. I was dating this girl which has loads of attraction for me but has a boyfriend (who is, actually, abroad).
    I really want to make the story short: we got to bed together and almost had sex but had a severe LMR. We slept together and the next day we parted on the premise of it being a goodbye. I was cool and aloof.

    She contacted me the same night alluding to a date, I accepted the hint and set things out. We had a very long night — from 20.30 to 5.00 AM. During the date there was a lot of sexual tension, and push-pulls, and freeze-outs, and I was thinking for most of the time like: « Ok babe, it's your last chance; get it or I'm gonna next you real hard… »

    We went to her place and we again almost had sex, but again I got LMR which I couldn't break.
    At some point she was all like: « I think you should go », but if I went away, I could feel her strong grasp, if I tried to break LMR I would get a freeze-out.
    So, at some point I just thought I wasn't going to be played with like this, so I told her: « Ok, cool: if you can't do that, I will. Goodbye » I got up, took my stuff, and started going away.
    She stopped me after a while by taking me. I watched her, kissed her, but when I saw some resistance even to the kiss. I pulled back and went away.


    Though it was rather emotionally taxing, while going back home at 9.00 AM I was thinking that was it, and I was going to next her.
    Now, after some sleep over that, I'm not sure this is the best decision.

    Should I really next her or should I fight for her?
    Should I go to her and tell her that I won't give up on her (or just act like so)?
    What do you guys think she wants? She has obviously tons of attraction for me and really wanted to fark hard, and also has some kind of not-so-satisfying relationship with this guy who sounds somewhat beta.
    Does she just want me to take control of it and take what I want? Does she want me to crush all her inibitions and taboos? Does she want to feel some kind of emotional investment from my part (doesn't want to leave her 1.5yr BF for a guy who isn't emotionally investing enough?)?

    Eager to hear your opinions,

    ShinRa

  2. #2
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    It's not emotional investment she wants

    First and foremost she's gonna need "plausible deniability". This means she would never say ahead of time this is what I'm gonna do, but if it happens and it's "not her fault" then she wont feel as guilty
    Also note the issue of plausible deniability means she MUST put up last minut resistance. By putting herself there she's hoping you will power through it (note this does not mean force or rape or anything like that, but you seem to have a pretty good handle on that just a note for the readers)

    The question of if you want to deal with the drama is up to you, I'm not gonna address that

    Her questions have nothing to do with your emotional investment. If you really play it up with her you're only gonna end up making her think about it more and she will certainly decide she's not a cheater

    I'm not advocating making a girl cheat per say, only explaining her resistance

    Play it cool If you want this one, don't play a sap, you need to stay aloof and cool, keep it sexual when you are with her, and be very careful you don't get oneitis, she's an option but dont make her your only option

    I hope this clarifies, you are on the right track regarding crushing her taboos. She needs to be able to say oops, it just happened
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  3. #3
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    Thumbs down Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Hey Red Baron, thanks for your pointers.
    In those moments I knew I needed to work on “plausible deniability” but, in retrospective, I realize I probably didn't balance the excalation too well; I read some interesting LMR articles, and I learned how some people verbalize the plausible deniability, with things like: « We're not going to have sex… » or stuff like this, thus shutting off her LMR shield while working on excalating very slowly.

    However, perhaps this response came a bit late, as I tried to sort out my own solution and probably approached it from the wrong angle.

    Here's the story, if you care reading it:

    We met again two days after to a date we had set before, but of course we didn't confirm.
    Since I had invited her in the I'm going there, if you wanna come it's cool-kind of way, I thought I should just go anyways. She turned up. With her female friend and another guy, who severely cockblocked me.
    I acted cool and instead built rapport with the other friend and with the guy. It worked like charm as she did basically isolate me when we were walking.

    We were speaking about random bullshit, and I don't know where this thing was going to end. In theory, me and the other guy were getting the girls back to their place; however, I doubted she would invite me over, since there was this other random dude and her friend knew she has a BF , thus putting social pressure on her if she invites me in front of her.
    In that moment, I thought she was doing the preps for LJBF me. Which, of course, I don't want.

    So I just stopped her and confronted her. I basically told her I didn't want a polite-let's exchange Christmas congratulations-kind of relationship with her. I will not tell you all the details of the discussion because, if I do, the post is going to turn out really long.
    Just know we parted again.

    That same night she sent me some texts. In the morning she also sent me a text, to which I replied and got no other reply.
    After a few hours she invited me for coffee over text message. Since I was busy, I framed to take control of the interaction and answered: « Fine. But not now. Meet me at X spot at 4.30 ».

    We spoke again and then went for a walk and talk. She held my hand all time and we would stop now and then for some serious make-out session. If I got pushed away, then I would proceed to a freeze-out, which worked like charm. She basically wanted to push me away and keep walking hand-in-hand, but I didn't gave her my hand or any other physical comfort (while still acting cool and talking normally). She would then always initiate physical contact, like clinging hard on my arm, or taking my hand and putting it around her, and so on.
    I realised we were just procrastinating and taking time, since we were walking far from both my and her place, so I just told her: « We are trying to run away and go far from the point, we shouldn't » and I lead her through the ending part of the walk.
    Put some make-out sessions here and there, some really serious ones, like me sitting down and she being all over me and stimulating her *** on my cock (on the street, yo).

    We came to a crossroad were on one side was my place and on the other side hers. I told her: « This is where we part. » and she said « I know. » and hugged me and hid her face in my chest.
    I hugged her back and told her: « Come on… don't do like this…in the end I am just some random dude you met 10 days ago. » I was smiling, because it was the main point of all of it how things clicked so perfectly between us in just a few days and we felt we knew eachother for a lifetime.
    She looked at me with very sad sparkly eyes and kissed me passionately.
    Then told me: « Goodbye, stranger… »

    And we parted.

    I'm not sure of the next step, if any: she seemed too much into me, but I probably did wrong by engaging her logical brain, instead of hanging out with her, acting just cool and make it happen.
    But I heard the LJBF coming… I will, for sure, let some time pass, but then should I initiate contact again? Should I invite her to things, even plans we did in future projections?
    I also know her BF is coming to visit her sometime next month: should I contact her before or after his visit?

    Though I guess this is really it, I would appreciate any feedback/pointer/thought/anything, as I guess that overall I conducted things as smoothly as I could, though I can't hide the feeling that, perhaps, I could have had success. Though I'm not sure how.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Actually let me say overall very good work

    This is gonna be all about frame control, you really have to pin the escalation on her and above all make her work for it

    For example when she texts don't respond back right away (which it sounds like youve got down). If she asks to hang out you can say things like "ok only if you promise to keep your hands off me"
    When she pulls your arm around her pull away and tease her like "hey you promised...". When she naturally pushes through YOUR resistance, give in for a bit, then pull back and stop again, like "we can't ...". Or "I promised myself i'd be good...."

    Make her work for it all the way to the end. If she puts her hand on your junk gently pull it off and say "hey now...."
    She will push through it and probably escalate even further

    She is used to having to put up resistance to you, that puts her in a certain mindset to fight against the urges. Turn it around and make her push through yours and she will

    let me know if you want more advice

    Eager to hear what happens next
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Sorry I realized I didn't respond to parts of it. I would say give it a few days. The bf coming will definitely change things but the strategy outlined above is still the way to go
    I'm guessing she will contact you within the next 3 days. If she doesnt after say, a week , you can try sending her something simple, like a joke or a really stupid question. Let her be the one to ask you to do something, stay aloof
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Hey man, thanks for that earnest help.

    Let me get this straight, though. I understand the importance of making her the chaser. But we were speaking about “plausible deniability” being the key in this situation, right? Wasn't the whole point from her point of view that things just had to happen? And, if anything, it was implied that the big responsibility was mine (after all, she is the one putting the LMR).

    Can I really expect her to consciously make the decision of chasing me in a situation like this? I understand how pulling back makes things more interesting: heck, it works with me as well — I always find myself more interested if something becomes more difficult to catch.
    But chasing means investment: will she really be wanting to invest in me, while doing so means 1. Leaving her comfort zone and 2. Risk on an unknown path, while she has already invested 1.5yr in another person?


    Ok, as for the practical follow-up: I will let you know if she contacts me within your predicted 3 days; as for the — so to speak — back-up plan after one week, I'd appreciate some advice.

    First, we basically parted with the implicit premise of not seeing eachother anymore. As I said, I told her I'm not interested in a polite-let's-share-Christmas-congratulations relationship with her, it was clear to her that meeting me implies something more than hanging out with a "friend"; and I think this is clear.
    So, can I really expect her to make contact when the premise was this? And, can I really break the silence when I stood my ground so firmly on not wanting any friendship or average relationship with her?

    Secondly, if I do break the silence, you suggested me not to invite her doing anything, which I think is really sound advice.
    I have thought of three things in this regard:
    1. It is true that I have told her I don't wish the polite-only kind of relationship; but it's also true that I didn't ever say: «*I'm not going to meet you or speak with you ever again. ». I perhaps should show her that the relationship can go on without being in neither of those two extremes. Perhaps I should act cool, send her a message with a joke as you said, or with something she should check out, and so on.
    Things should be cool, no negative tension, but I'm not leaving my ground doing this (nor acting needy). I think.

    2. I made a good connection with her flatmate; she's honestly a cool girl, and, though I'm not interested in her romantically, I think both of us would enjoy hanging out together and do stuff. When I parted from her, I thought that was a shame that I was not going to see this other girl anymore. Perhaps I should rethink about it, and just act cool with her, as our relationship is independent of what happened.
    This could stress, like 1., that things are cool and not tense in a negative way, and could keep me around in her life (i.e. in her mind) without me being the try-hard.

    3. As I had alluded in the previous message, we actually made some vague future plans; especially two are kind of compelling: one is going rock-climbing, and going to a hike in a cool place around here. These weren't exactly plans, as we didn't fix anything, but were more than just chitty-chat, as we got infos about how to do them, and so on.
    Do you think it would be a bad idea to actually invite her to one of those two things? If I do, should I perhaps invite her friend as well?

    Ok, that's it; I'd just like to know what do you reckon about these thoughts.
    Thanks again, man: having an external point of view, when it's sincere, it's invaluable.

    ShinRa

  7. #7
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Ok so this is a pretty dynamic situation

    Understand that she gets something out of the push-pull too, she gets validation when she knows she can get you which seems like part of what she wants. When you freeze her out it sets triggers off that she wants to fix, your freeze outs last time were good, mixed signals work great. Giving her more mixed signals and pinning the escalation on her is not about making her invest, its about preventing her from putting up her standard defenses when you try to get something from her.
    Your goodbye to her was not good, telling her this isnt what I want, etc, portrays neediness and is kinda afc (overall you did well I'm telling you that constructively)

    Her having her boy coming soon is your biggest obstacle clearly. To be fair I'm not 100% sure if she will follow through with messaging you again in this situation, and to be honest I'm not sure exactly what your best move is to get her to see you again soon
    Sending her a joke and just being fun is not bad, don't do it before day 3 or 4.
    Inviting her for a hike is Maybe ok, but the biggest issue is that if you initiate and invite her out you are gonna put her back into a defensive mindset and it will be much harder to fulfil the remaining steps

    As far as the rest of it, plausible deniability vs leadin her on, trust me on this one.
    They steps sound contradictory but they aren't, it's just a delicate balance to get used to
    You aren't so much making her make a conscious decision you're just teasing her with mixed signals. This absolutely blasts through her barriers
    Keep in mind when you froze her out she worked to initiate back with you. Give her a little then pull away again
    You need to keep her OFF of the defensive, this is very important. Whenever you guys do meet be careful you don't appeal to her like "trust me I'll be good, bla bla" but tease her for her to be good.
    When she is pursuing you for her own validation her walls will be down. If you're pulling her in a direction you're gonna have added resistance in addition to the LMR. Her LMR will still be there at the very end but ideally the sexual tension gets so powerful that once the rest of her walls are down its like breaking through a piece of paper
    Never need praise, sympathy, or approval



  8. #8
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    I understood what you said, though I am not sure if the goodbye does portray neediness. It certainly wasn't a smart tactical move, so to speak, but I did it to portray the opposite of neediness: isn't that what most AFC do? Like bearing with LJBF relationships and becoming orbiters just because they're needy and not firm enough?
    I mean, that goodbye kinda meant: « I don't need you, nor I need to waste time in something I don't want. That's why I'm perfectly fine with nexting/losing you. ». At least that's what I meant: would you care to elaborate why does come through as needy? I'm really interested.


    Also, I kinda went against your advice and sent her a text. It was a very good chance today (and, mind, I've not been hearing from her since Sunday, which makes 4 days), and I decided to seize it.
    There was a big storm. We shared some cool intimate moment during a storm, and both talked about how much we like those. At times, there was a very strong lightning and I would go: « Woah! Did you see that? » and she would get pissed off because she was actually talking and was distracted for the big moment.
    So I sent her this message:

    « Woah! Did you see that? »

    She immediately got back saying:

    « Missed that, like always. =) »

    Then I just didn't reply. I thought it was ok, she jumped the hoop and that's it.
    After a while she texts me again:

    « Wow! And the rain! »

    « Ah, the good ones: make the leaves rustle in thrill and excitement. You can appreciate the good things in life, don't you? Sweet. »
    (This may need some explaination: we agreed that not all rains are good, and the good ones come very rarely. Moreover, her last name translated means "rustle", a thing which she is very proud of and we joked much).

    « Sweet? Yakh. Powerful! Leave the lives speechless, it is too strong to make them rustle. »
    (Though I meant "sweet" as "nice thing", she misunderstood I was referring to the movement of leaves; but who cares! I'm here to feed her with emotions, not to argue)

    While I was thinking on how to answer, in five minutes the storm faded so I wrote:
    « Doesn't listening to the storm fading away, give you the shivers all over your body? It is like you feel full, whole, and energized. Serene, but ready to dance. »

    She: « Haha! This is it! The energy, electricity. But not sure about serenity. Very awake, aware...rather impatient than serene I guess. »

    Ok… so here I was undecided. My first thought was to answer her with this text:
    « Wanna meet me? I can come with the car and then we can go somewhere, if you promise to be a good girl. »
    I stared the text for a while. I guess it would surf the momentum, and it would have been a quite adventurous challenge (also here is half past midnight). On the other hand, I had no backup plan — what if she answers no? Then it would be very awkward, and I would lose everything I gained in this interaction. Though the momentum was going really well, it was a move too risky to commit to, so I just didn't answer anything.
    I still have time, I guess, but the momentum fades rapidly.

    If you happen to be around for some suggestion on the fly, I'll catch it. If not, I'm eager to hear your opinion on that interaction.

    神羅

  9. #9
    The Red Baron's Avatar
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    I'm driving home got a date tonight so quick response.

    Realize I'm not expert, just a guy who thinks i understand a few things

    That text would be ok. It's not perfect and it puts you at a disadvantage to be the one inviting, but as far as inviting her goes that's about as well as you could do it
    If the energy is there right now it's ok to roll with it

    Although I would cut a few words "wanna meet for a bit? I can pick you up, if you promise to be a good girl". Or something

    Remember the idea of the push pull if anything happens. She's gonna have a strong wall up and if you push and hit that wall you're gonna get stuck, so pinning the interaction on her and pulling away to make her lead the steps is the only way for it to work

    At least I think so with this one

    Hope this hit ya in time
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: When to fight and when to next?

    Thanks, Red Baron, I really appreciate what you're doing. I sincerely hope your date has gone well.

    Also, I do realize you are not an expert and so am I. I guess we are here for the same reason: which is to learn and understand. I have a deep curiosity about life and especially about human beings, and I think understanding ourselves through self-observation alone is not going to bring us very far: we need feedback.
    But our feedback also needs to be well-grounded: that's why I'm not asking for it to my friends, because most of them are just AFC, or if they're naturals they cannot really explain what's going on.
    We all know how traditional "friend" advice would sound like, and that's honestly not what I need.
    So, yea, thanks.


    As for your message, I guess it arrived a tinsy bit too late (though I really appreciate that you did get back to me as quickly as humanly possible!): as already almost one hour had passed from her last message and I didn't feel the momentum anymore.
    I perhaps should just have gone with my feelings, since everything was working out towards a clear climax; and I really felt it could work.
    I regret it a little right now, but also understand that, in the moment, I was facing some practical problems: where to go? Where to get gas for my car at this time of the night? What if she is already comfortable (it was almost 1AM after all) and doesn't feel like getting ready to meet me? Though I felt she would accept it, the risk of her refusing and making things much more awkward was too high, and I didn't go for it.

    I just didn't answer anything to her last text.
    What do you think of it? What do you think her reaction to it could be?
    In a sense, by not answering anything, I didn't reward her for jumping through my hoop; which is kind as if I said: « You climax with me, and then I don't care. »
    This is my topmost preoccupation: that I screwed up this bit. Up until the last message, even though I thought I went a bit too far, when she answered that way, I knew everything went just smooth. Then, I don't know.

    On the other hand, it may also be seen as push-pull situation: I got her emotionally and physically involved and then pulled away, as if it was like an implied « We can't… ». This is what she did with me, after all: by climaxing almost to sex and then pulling away — and I guess this stuff drives people crazy.

    I'm really curious on your interpretation of this.


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