I know the rule is that you shoudlnt pay for anything before you have had sex with the girl. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions to this or any rules that go along with the rule, because it seems a little more complicated and situational. For instance if your the one asking the girl out somesimtes they will assume you are paying. Especially if you begin suggesting things to get (or for instance I am the type of guy who likes to totally control the expereince at the restaurant so I will ask her to let me do the ordering) she will just assume you are going to pay. A lot of dating books have suggested that on the first and maybe the second and third dates you discuss who is going to pay before hand. However sometimes you dont want to spoil moments in conversation by bringing up that issue, and may just want to treat that whole who is paying t hing as if it is not even something that needs to be talked about or is an issue that crossed anyones mind anyways so that things can flow easier. I have had a lot of dates where I will discuss it and wont pay. But there are times when I am already seducing the woman and she is totally giving in and I know that she has already told herself that she is going to allow me to take her, I am not going to interrupt a romantic moment where we are both totally absorbed in our sexuality to talk about money and that logistical concern. Lol and also if the woman is more traditional or from a different culture it may seem like a common dating protocol to her and it may actually be a good thing that you are comforming to it and paying, showing that you can take care of her needs financially at least on symbolic occasions such as a first date. Or times when it may seem petty, like if your just ordering a couple drinks that are part of many and she had already bought the first round or you guys are going back and forth I mean you just cant be petty. But I do understand the rule of dont pay before sex, I just wondered if there is more to it. And most importnatly what are some of the things you guys say when your trying to make a woman pay for something? Like I will ask a girl to order me something and she usually just pays for it too. Especially if I have just paid for something, immediately afterward like when she says thanks I'll say no problem, I'll let you order/get the next one", which forces her to realize that this is not going to be a one sided relationship. And in many situations I will try to make the girl pay for her own things, but like sometimes you go out and you are sharing some things, or it gets mixed up, and maybe for instance you have ordered more things than her, I mean it gets complicated, and how do you tell her to pay for what? It will A) make you look like you have money issues and that money is a problem to you, and B) take you away from the fun while you have to take the moment to figure out the logistics of whos paying for what and how to split it up, and then calculate the tip, I mean it turns into a big logistical production and will take you away from the romance and excitement you have generated. So usually when the check comes I just open it up and look at it, and if she starts looking at it too and wanting to pay I let her, but if she thinks its my job to pay I will. But then I will turn around and tell her that she is going to pay the next time so its not one sided. But also I think its beneficial to be paying, because I like to excite a womans senses with all kinds of experiences. Artistic experiences, cultural experiences, food and drink expereinces, musical expereindes, etc etc. So I like picking the restaurant, and picking one I think she has never been too, which will impress her, and which will be a very new and exciting (if possible ethnic) culinary exprience for her, and then I like to be the one to choose the food and drink too. Many women wont order cocktails because they are expensive, they are a commitment to the effects of alcohol that sometimes women dont want, and women will often want to seem socially conservative and wont want to be the first one to order a drink, and on first or second dates especially a lot of times they will be more reserved about alcohol use, or for instance if you are going on a lunch date or brunch date like I did today, they wont think to order a cocktail because its too early in the day, and I may know that the restaurant I have taken them too specializes in different kinds of special cocktails and have special brunch cocktails that they should really try because its a great experience that they might just not think of. So I mean I assume its ok to pay for the check at a time like that where you really want to create a certain experience for the woman and be in full control of that experience right? And what are situations in which you would suggest that the woman pay and how would you word it so that you dont sound cheap? And if there are any other situational instances regarding who pays for what and what you should be doing specifically at those times please let me know because I dont want the woman to feel like I am giving her power in a situation by paying for things or that I am the type of guy that just pays for everything lol,and I know thats not good, but sometimes I think its appropriate to pay. And of course sometimes it is hard for a guy to ask a girl to pay.